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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have always tried to keep my reloads for all gauges at 1200 fps thereby keeping consistency in my leads. Since having spine surgery I need to try and reduce my recoil. The recoil for the 410 & 28 at 1200 fps are fine but I want to reduce the 20 ga.

My questions are:
1) If I reduce the fps on only my 20 ga shells to approximately 1125 fps, will I notice a change in my lead?
2) Do you think I will notice much of a difference in recoil with a reduction of this amount?
 

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1. No change in your leads. Anyway, not enough to effect your leads.

2. Some reduction in felt recoil, not much. If you really want to feel a difference, try some 3/4 oz. loads in the 20 ga.
 

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How much does a minor reduction of fps affect lead?

In skeet, a minor amount. :D Truth is, its probably so small one could not make that adjustment realistically.

However, when shooting SC, where the distances can go to 50-90 yards, going from a 1150 shell to a 1340 shell can change the lead quite a bit.

For skeet, my fav rounds don't go over 1200, (except 410) and I try and stick with 1oz max. Faster or heavier, and the recoil can lead to bad habits.

Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey EyeMissum,
I have read posts from others about the 3/4 oz. 20 ga loads and I always wondered what is the difference in shooting this load and shooting a standard 3/4 oz 28 ga?
 

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Marlin 1
Using 1200 FPS as a benchmark for measuring lead, a reduction (or addition), of 100 FPS, will effect actual lead by less than 3 inches. Your suggestion of reducing velocity by approx, 75 FPS will in fact change the lead by approx. 2 inches.

I doubt there is a human alive that can adjust their leads by 2 inches. Bottom line is that it won't materially effect anything as far as lead is concerned.

DLM
 

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Marlin1 said:
Hey EyeMissum,
I have read posts from others about the 3/4 oz. 20 ga loads and I always wondered what is the difference in shooting this load and shooting a standard 3/4 oz 28 ga?
I say NONE !!! My 20 ga. 3/4 oz. reloads duplicate the performance of the 28 ga. exactly. That's why that load is my main practice load. Very low recoil, crushes targets, and doesn't burn up my expensive 28 ga hulls. I can get all the 20 ga. hulls I want for free.

DLM
 

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DrJim said:
How much does a minor reduction of fps affect lead?

In skeet, a minor amount. :D Truth is, its probably so small one could not make that adjustment realistically.

However, when shooting SC, where the distances can go to 50-90 yards, going from a 1150 shell to a 1340 shell can change the lead quite a bit.

For skeet, my fav rounds don't go over 1200, (except 410) and I try and stick with 1oz max. Faster or heavier, and the recoil can lead to bad habits.

Jim
I need to get the fifth addition of Lyman. It seems to me when I was looking at the tables in it the difference between faster and slow shells was small because of the rapid deceleration of the faster shot at longer ranges. Not claiming this is correct but am wondering... Dr Jim do you have a source of data? Anyone?
 

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No, my only source is shooting, and you have a point, but I don't believe it will turn out that at say 70 yards, a shot fired at 1150 fps, will arrive at the same time as shot fired at 1340fps. I'm shooting some of that 1340 stuff on an SC course right now, and it seems to be quite a bit faster than the skeet rounds I am use to. I was practicing on a crosser that was about 45-50 yards out, and I was amazed how quickly that target broke.

The gun was probably over choked a bit too, as it was apparent that I could break the front or rear off the bird depending on where my pattern was. I don't usually see that so distinctly with my skeet chokes on the skeet field.

Jim
 

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Many shooters are under the impression that muzzle velocity rating on a box of ammo means that the shot will travel at the rated speed all the way to the target. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The following are examples of notable balistic table velocities for 12 gauge 7 1/2 shot.

Load #1: Muzzle Velocity 1300 fps will yield a velocity of 795 fps at 30 yards and 575 fps at 60 yards.

Load #2: Muzzle Velocity 1145 fps will yield a velocity of 735 fps at 30 yards and 540 fps at 60 yards.

At distances of 50 yards or greater there is a 6% difference in velocity between the two loads. I doubt if human senses (sight and hearing) can detect a 6% variances in the velocity performances.
 

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Zac,
Those figures are true, although there will be many dis-believers. The faster you start a load, the quicker it slows, (to a point), and at a given distance, the terminal velocity will be very little more than the load started a lot slower in the first place.

That being said, there's also another side to that deal, as the load started the fastest, will indeed arrive at the stated distance sooner. This is because it travels much faster during the initial part of it's flight, although slowing much faster, and not having much additional velocity when it arrives at the stated distance.

So fast loads do get there sooner, but have very little more energy when they do get there. And YES, this does have a significantly noticeable effect on lead.

DLM
 

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Interesting. My current load is rated at 1200 ftps if I add a couple more grains of Promo the book predicts 1310ftps. I'll try that on some long crossers or quartering away targets and see if I can sense the difference. I enjoy on occasion breaking a long target where I "think" I missed only to see it break. I'm not a good enough shot to declare much about what works but may be I can tell the difference in time. I shoot long stuff pull away and really don't sense how many feet of lead I use.
 

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Tangarm said:
Interesting. My current load is rated at 1200 ftps if I add a couple more grains of Promo the book predicts 1310ftps. I'll try that on some long crossers or quartering away targets and see if I can sense the difference. I enjoy on occasion breaking a long target where I "think" I missed only to see it break. I'm not a good enough shot to declare much about what works but may be I can tell the difference in time. I shoot long stuff pull away and really don't sense how many feet of lead I use.
You'll be able to tell the difference in recoil too. I don't enjoy that load near as much as the ol' 1140 1 oz. I resort to a 391 when I have to shoot the faster stuff or the 1 1/8 also.

Perhaps if you brought along 10 or so of each, shot a few at 1200, then switch back and forth?

I imagine there is some math formula, likely with calculus, that would tell us given enough vital information to plug into it. Wasn't often that I enjoyed a math class. :D Oh, rifle bullets are so much easier! :D

I think Frank Lopez would describe what you are talking about something like; do to the increased velocity, the front of the shot string peels away faster, and so the string opens faster, and those that peal way slow down as there is less drafting being done. But to what extent, and how rapidly, or at what range this happens... :shock:

I'm interested to hear how you do with your faster shells.

Jim
 

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Using Lymans 4th as reference -

Size 7 1/2 shot

1330 fps @ 3 yds = 580 fps @ 60 - time of flight = .223 sec. & drop is 9.5 in.

1200 fps @ 3 = 555 fps @ 60 - time of flight = .238 sec. & drop = 10.8

1135 fps @ 3 = 540 @ 60 - time of flight = .246 sec. and drop = 11.7

a 30 mph target will travel 44 fps. Time of flight of .223 sec (1330fps) will give you 9.812 ft. of travel and the same calculataion for the other two loads result in 10.472 ft & 10.824 ft. so a 60 yd shot at a 30 mph target would require a ft more lead if you used a 1135 fps load instead of the 1330 fps load & only 8 in. of change for the standard 1200 fps load.
 

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HOWEVER, anyone on this board who can discern a 1 foot difference in lead on a 60 yard target gets my endless kudos. I think the shell game is mostly hype, but that is just my opinion. The shooter either has the skills and talent, gets lucky, or neither.
 

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MRPOWER said:
HOWEVER, anyone on this board who can discern a 1 foot difference in lead on a 60 yard target gets my endless kudos. I think the shell game is mostly hype, but that is just my opinion. The shooter either has the skills and talent, gets lucky, or neither.
Plus 1 on what Mike said. Plus 2, if you will let me vote twice. :mrgreen:
 

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I agree with the numbers about lead. I am happy to shoot 2 3/4 dram loads they work fine for me.

On the other hand I used to shoot pistols at 50 yard steel plates with 9mm loads. Standard Win White Box is rated and chroned at 1200 ftps. It seemed to me that I could tell the difference between loads that were moving slower and faster by the time it took to hear the ping of the plate. I don't know how this translates to shotguns yet but I get to it real soon now. Of course I hit plates at 50 most of the time but my clays shooting is not.... Lots easier to get two quick pistol hits to hear the difference then break two clays that together.

I have always been surprised by the ability of the body to make accurate side by side comparisons. I have been surprised, given given longer times between events, how quickly the ability to distinguish fall off.
 

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Here is what I calculate. The difference of 100 ft/sec in muzzle velocity ( say 1100 vs 1200) gives a difference of appoximately 5 thousanths (0.005) of a second in travel time to target, using 60 feet from gun to target.

So, if the target is travelling 45 mph (66 feet per second), the shot travel difference of 0.005 seconds works out to about a difference of 0.33 feet or 4 inches of travel distance for the target.
 

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oldstick said:
Here is what I calculate. The difference of 100 ft/sec in muzzle velocity ( say 1100 vs 1200) gives a difference of appoximately 5 thousanths (0.005) of a second in travel time to target, using 60 feet from gun to target.

So, if the target is travelling 45 mph (66 feet per second), the shot travel difference of 0.005 seconds works out to about a difference of 0.33 feet or 4 inches of travel distance for the target.
And, of course the above ignores the effect of air resistance slowing down the shot after leaving the muzzle. Therefore, no more than 4 inches of difference in ideal conditions, such as on the moon with no atmosphere.
 
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