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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just bought a new 686 silver pigeon and plan to use it only for skeet. It weighs in at 7 lbs. 6 oz. I would like to add some weight to cut down on the recoil and it is a little whippy the way it is. I already added 8 oz. in the stock(after I found the center of gravity without any weight) and secured by packing foam rubber behind it. I'm going to buy a Briley 8 oz. clamp on barrel weight. Assuming I position the weight so that the center of gravity stays the same, will this be the same as a gun that is heavy right off the shelf?
 

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You may get a lot of different answers to this question but to me its a NO. Thats why perazzi`s and K guns fetch 10 grand.
 
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You would think that the same gun with weight added front and rear to keep the center of gravity - the balance point - the same would result in the same swing feel and/or swing dynamics.

Tain't so Buckwheat.

It's hard to describe the math involved but it involves moment arms of inertia and the way you hold and swing the gun. Something changes.

You should go into gun ownership with your eyes wide open. Take me for example. I am a poor person. I had to choose one gun for better or for worse - sort of like marriage three generations ago - and use it because I did not have the moola to monkey around swapping shooting irons. I forced myself to get used to what I had and I shot it. And I shot it. I fitted myself around the gun until it felt natural. I hoped that by shooting what I had and disregarding the siren song of the other, greener sides of the fence I would be happier in the long run. I hoped to do as much or more score-wise as my familiarity with my gun and my mount position edged out some inherent better qualities of another gun.

This metaphor for marriage and gun ownership is apt in that I HAVE hefted other guns so to speak :oops: (the flesh is weak Lord forgive me) and I have felt the wonder of their fit and good looks but always the faithful hound, I return to what brung me to the dance and take secret delight in whuppin the gents with bucks and their dude guns.

One thing tho: Unlike the chickies guns are indifferent to the size of your bank roll. But the chickies like guys with jack in their jeans: If you are an average palooka keep the guns cheap and you can have both the guns and a little green stuff to date the dollies.
 

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Crow, I'd give Skeet-Man a PM and get one of his under the forend grip weights. I think it is better to add wt between your hands, not out on the barrel. That is some of the problem I ran into, too much wt out on the end of the barrel. Stick with the in the stock weights and the under girp weights, and I think you will be more comfortable with the wt you have added.

bd
 

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Crowbuster,
It does not have to feel like the "gun that is heavy right off the shelf" because you are not shooting that one. You are shooting the one you bought. It will feel heavier and the added weight will reduce the whippiness and the ability to stop the gun (good thing). You can reduce the weight and move the weight forward. You do not have to have the weight between your hands. The only way to do that is to have it almost at the hinge pin. Try some different positions but don't compare it to a gun you do not have, that is just counterproductive.

You already have the gun so experiment with the weights and enjoy it. If you install full length tubes you will want to experiment some more to find a balance between the regular barrel with weights and then without the weights but with tubes installed.
 

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The difficulty in resolution of adding weight and maintaining dynamicity of the gun is part of the reason why the 686 series guns are considered field guns. They're designed lighter than target guns. And MrModelle is dead on about the polar moments of inertia. Unless you want to get into calculus, you'll have a hell of a time trying to get the balance/weight relation to work out. And even if you do the math, you'll still have the problem of trying to get the weight into the gun in the proper distribution.
 

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In this case it would be very hard to bring a 7lb 6 oz gun up to weight, especially by placing weight in two spots on the gun. It goes back to the broomstick and the bricks example. If you put the two bricks in the middle of the broomstick it feels whippy, if you put the two bricks on each end, very heavy. It all comes down to where and how you place the weight.

That said most good shooters are very particular about how the gun feels, and take measures by adding or removing weight from various places on the gun to perfect the feel. They do this by adding lead tape or barrel weights along the barrels, changing barrel length or contour, placing lead in the forend and or stock, changing the wood for heavier or lighter wood, back boring barrels to get a lighter feel, removing weight from the stock, changing the tubes, etc. This is done by everybody, so don't feel you have to shoot what came in the box because you don't and nobody does.
 

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Mike (P), the term you are looking for is the mass moment of inertia. The polar moment of inertia measures the ability of a structural member to resist twisting. The mass moment of inertia is basically the sum of the moments ( mass times moment arm) of a body rotation about an axis. There is no formula to set to zero to get the ulitmate result. If you are trying to add a set amount of weight though, like a pound, the portion further out has a greater impact on the mass moment of inertia as the moment arm is longer. So if you want to add,say a pound, you can put more than half in the butt and less than half on the barrel. It is still a matter of feel when you clamp the weights and experiment to find what you like. I do not see how this can be an exact science as one ideal situation for one person is not necessarily the best for the next guy.

In Mike M's case, it is obvious from what I have heard of his shooting skills that he adjusted to the gun or made subtle adjustments to it and with a gun that most would not consider as an ideal skeet gun. He shoots far better than I will ever be able to with my XS Skeet.
 

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Well, perhaps I'm not a very good shooter, but I'm shooting a 24" 1941 M11 28g with a Cutts choke, better than I ever shot my 525 tubed. Out there in a 25mph wind, break'n the birds way early, break'em late, brake'em over the stake. The feeling of confidence in being able to break the birds was some amazing thing. I can see how my Mom won so many with this gun... I love it.

It's a very short LOP, set up for a 5'2'' woman, and I love the way it handles. I think a big factor is far forward front hand that I learned from a good shooter. Think it stops the gun from being whippy.

I'm having a blast with this gun! Think this year, I'm going to shoot doubles with it.

Draw backs... It flings hulls way, way out. Think I lost half my 28g hulls today. The stock. The stock has dried up, and pulled away from the reciever about the thickness of 3 dollar bills toghther. My experience with these guns says this is not good, and the stock won't hold up to a lot of shooting.

bd
 

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Bel-Dad- Thanks for the plug. My website is below if I can be of assistance to anyone regarding barrel weights.

I went through the same thing trying to get a 9.5lb carrier barrel kolar to weigh and balance like the 10.5lb Citori I was used to. Lead tape on my subgauge tubes was the first solution (the "weight" part of my problem), and worked quite well for a couple years, accompanied by hollowing the stock out to move the balance forward. Next step was removing the lead tape, putting a 4oz 1/4" tall aluminum add-on rib on my gun (killing 2 birds with one stone, getting my head up above the receiver and adding weight) in addition to my 4oz forend weights. The precision fit stock was the final piece of the puzzle, now my guns weighs close to what my browning did (10lb 4oz w/ my current setup vs 10.5lbs w/the citori, if I remember right), but its lightyears ahead of the browning in terms of pointability.

The only issue with the clamp-on weights is when your trying to match the gun with tubes in, is you can either get the weight to match, or the balance to match, but not both, because the weight of the tubes is spread out over the length of the barrel, not just in one spot like the clamp on weight. You could match the weight and balance of the tubes w/ a 14oz weight (give or take depending on the exact weight of the tubes) provided you could put it at the EXACT balance point of the barrels w/ the tubes in, but the forend usually gets in the way of that point, so you are forced to put a lighter weight further out to match the balance.
 

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Ian, he's just trying to add some weight for skeet. He bought a field gun, but a good one, and he trying to add weight without throwing the ballance way out.

I had a very good shooter tell me the expensive guns have heavy recievers. So these guns cary a lot more weight between the hands. I don't know any way to add weight to a lite reciever, but I was thinking your under the grip weight is as close as one can come to having a heavy reciever.

I had a lot of trouble with a barrel that was too heavy for me... So I'm pretty sure, one has to be careful about adding too much weight out on those barrels. It makes the gun too slow.

bd
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I shot four rounds yesterday with just the 8 oz. in the stock, no weight in the front. I felt really good and dosen't seem as whippy(I don't know if the weight in the stock helped with that). My best round was a 23 but I can feel I'm getting better with the gun. I'm not sure if I even want to touch it. I'm going to wait to shoot it a few more times before I do anythig else.
Thanks for all your answers guys,
Mike
 

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Just to get back to the orginal, or title question, on this I have to agree with Chic and disagree with Mike M. You can indeed have what is more a point weight that yeilds equivelent mass moment of inertia to having the additional weight distributed along the lenght of the arm (in this case the length of the gun if you consider the butt pad to be the axis of rotation).

Happy holidays to all.
 

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Ok, I am trying to correct my vocabulary ignorance concerning:

"moment arms of inertia"

"polar moments of inertia"

"the term you are looking for is the mass moment of inertia. The polar moment of inertia measures the ability of a structural member to resist twisting. The mass moment of inertia is basically the sum of the moments ( mass times moment arm) of a body rotation about an axis."

Customstox contributed the last comment which make sense to me based on my reading of Wikipedia "The polar moment of inertia must not be confused with the moment of inertia, which characterizes an object's angular acceleration due to a torque."

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_moment_of_inertia

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia

Mass moment of inertia seems to be the formal description of what's happening here?

Apologies to Baron23 who was trying to get the thread back on target.
 

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Indeed, mass moment of inertia (vice polar moment of inertia) is far and away the most common understanding of "moment of inertia) and is in fact the principle (of the two) that applies to rotation of a shotgun in skeet.
 
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