[RetiredLawman]

On the gun logs that dealers keep showing receipt and sales, what is the correct procedure for taking a gun back and replacing it with another? Does the dealer enter the gun as a complete new transaction? How would you handle this?

I believe that there are some FFLs and other guys on this forum that are knowledgeable about this type of transaction.

The thread that has been running for a few days has me wondering about legalities of the transaction. Since BATF thrives on legalities, I am interested to know how you would enter this in your book and would you do another transaction form.

I am not trying to run this into the ground. Just trying to get my mind straight. Things have changed a lot since my days in LEO.

 

[Bobshouse]

I would never use white out on a 4473 or even a pen and ink change, no use in giving the ATF a reason to pull your FFL.

If the gun was brought back, the proper and legal method would be to log it in, complete new forms and, here in California, hold the gun(s) for another 10 days for all involved. Another DROS entry would be required also.

 

[RetiredLawman]

Good thinking! Thank you for your reply. Fortunately, not every state has the 10-day rule.

Anyone else care to chime in?

Is this a technical violation?

How would you handle this transaction to avoid grief?

 

[Deerbuster]

This happened to me with my 870. What happened was I brought the old one back, and they logged it in, and we had to fill out the entire paperwork out for the new gun. They wouldntve let us do it if we didnt have a good reason.

 

[drsfmd]

Different gun= new paperwork. Period.

 

[Banshee]

log the bring back firearm in the bound book.
new 4473 and background check for replacment firearm.

 

[musket36]

Regardless of the reason, for every firearm that goes through an FFL (01,02, 03 etc.), the holder of the FFL is required to log in their "bound book" acquisition and disposition paper.

 

[UncleFudd]

Exactly what muscket 36 says.

In Az I have to take it back, fill out the pawn form and new 4473 for it when it is once again sold.

Every transaction requires new paperwork and one had better not try to shortcut, it just ain't worth it.

I recently had it happen that a man and wife bought two guns one for each. They took them into the range area (same show room) and shot them for about an hour came out and traded the husb gun for a new one. He didn't like the one he had chosen (and this after having shot the same model out of the rental counter on two previous occassions).
It had not left the building and it cost him as the gun was used so I could not give him new gun price. I was as good as I could be and he left happy but none-the-less he had to fill out all the paperwork and go through the approval again.

Happy TG to all.

UF

 

[RetiredLawman]

Would you use white out if you made an error when doing it right? You've done everything by the book but you wrote down something by looking at the S/N wrong, maybe transposing the number? Or would you line through the transaction and start over with an explanation?

I know how technical the auditors can get. I don't think they have changed much since my days in LE. They love to catch a t uncrossed or an i not dotted.

Is white out ever used in your transaction bound book? I was never a BATF agent but I knew a few that would give jello a case of nerves. There was one agent that I knew that was so strict that the dealers he audited couldn't keep coffee in their cups while he was using a microscope on their invoices, bound book, and procedures.

I suppose that a lot of things have changed since my time but human nature being what it is, some people can't handle authority. It seems to make their day when they have the upper hand and can harass someone. They don't know the definition of good judgement.

 

[Bobshouse]

Would you use white out even if you made an error when doing it right? You've done everything by the book but you wrote down something by looking at the S/N wrong, maybe transposing the number?

Nope, cheaper and less problems during a review to use another form. I don't even allow my customers to change a number, they mess up, we whip out a new form...I mess up, we whip out a new form. Really gets embarassing when we both mess up...lol.

 

[RetiredLawman]

Bobshouse, how about in the transaction ledger, the bound book. Can you line through an error and start over with an explanation? Is this allowed now?

 

[UncleFudd]

Just what Bobshouse said.

NO WHITEOUT.

The 4473 is a legal affidavit it cannot be changed. However on one occassion I or my sales people had failed to put in the county on the 4473 and the feds caught them.
WE could not make the changes on those or a simple failure to put the zip code on the form.
Because it was something the customer was supposed to fill out, we had to send registered mail letters to inform them of the problems and they had to come down to put in the corrections.
On a mistake it is legal for the customer to line out, initial and fill in the correct info. But as Bobs said it is easier to whip out and fill in a new form.
Never whiteout and I am not sure I have ever heard of one of my associates having done so either.

Hope this helps.

UF

 

[RetiredLawman]

I now have a better understanding. Nothing has changed since my time in LE. Procedure still must be strictly followed.

Thanks to all who responded.

Happy Thanksgiving to all and Happy Hunting!

 

[Bobshouse]

Bobshouse, how about in the transaction ledger, the bound book. Can you line through an error and start over with an explanation? Is this allowed now?

Lining out a transaction in the ledger is ok. There is not actually a "standardized" ledger log. They all have the same information, some have additional information not required by the ATF people. As long as the ledger matches your inventory, the dates coinside with the 4473, and all information (including full addresses and signatures) are entered, your ok.

ATF was quick to point out about the abreviations. We did not enter the full address of the business/person we received the firearm from and got slapped...we do it now!

 

[RetiredLawman]

Thanks, Bobshouse.

 

[jugchoke]

That dealer being talked about, over on the thread, "After the transaction" is going to be in trouble! As well he should be! At least he should have known better! Fixed a previous mistake with white-out. And the previous mistake was not just a "typo" type!

He just seems to keep digging his hole deeper and deeper! His next audit is going to be interesting! For numerous reasons!

Clyde

 

[RetiredLawman]

Clyde, my thinking exactly. The posters that answered this thread are pros. They know the way it MUST be done.

It appears to that in order to save a thief's hide, this guy has put his FFL in serious jeopardy. BATF does not play around. I knew some of these agents a few years ago, was called on by them to check out some questionable purchases, etc. They will pull your ticket in a heartbeat for any reason that they can find. You have to go to Federal Court to get a stay. Then go back to persuade the judge that you made an honest error.

It ain't worth it to save the wife's kin from learning a much learned lesson. Attorney's fees alone will eat up a lot of the profits he might make-- if he can get his FFL back.

Nope, it just ain't worth the trouble. Do it right, by the book. As careless as this FFL holder seems to be, a judge can find several errors in the many transactions in this one matter, IMHO. One FFL I knew some years ago would not allow white out in his business for any reason. I think I know why.

 

[evbutler]

A very large gun dealer with several stores recently got his license in jeopardy because of logging errors in transferring guns between stores. All the guns were accounted for with some difficulty during an audit. Different methods of logging the inventory received and transferred done by the store managers.

The owner of these stores has never had a problem with audits of individual gun sales. Just different methods by different stores made it difficult for the auditors. He is trying to keep his license and has spent a fortune in federal court trying to persuade the court that he is an honest dealer that knows where every gun went. Agreed, he has made corections by training his managers after the fact. He may not prevail though he can prove where every gun went to. It was procedural errors that did it.

All it takes is a minor irritant for your FFL to be in jeopardy. There were too many procedural errors in the case of the FFL that sold the stolen gun. I definitely would not want to be in his shoes when the BATF comes calling. White out on a transaction-no way. Proper procedures not followed when the first gun was returned. None of the standard transaction requirements followed when the second gun was transferred. Receiving and selling a stolen gun, something the local authorities will be called upon to handle. I agree with Brad and Clyde, et al. This guy could be up that well known tributary without a paddle.

It is amazing what some people will do to help a family member from going to the slam. This was absolutely the most foolish matter I have heard of lately.

That is what I think. What do you think?

 

[jugchoke]

Well, this dealer still could have done the fix for the first problem right. He could have transfered the original gun back in correctly and the new one out, NIC check and all, like a trade of guns should be. (To be in line with the ATF, that is!)

Why he chose to do it the way he did, just floors me!

I hope we get to hear the outcome when his next audit comes down! And he had better hope that no one with a grudge hears about this snafu! Any time anyone gets cross wise with him, he is on thin ice! That is until the next regular audit!

Clyde

 

[evbutler]

10-4.

+1 for this post.