G
Guest
·I have recently acquired a 12 bore gun, s/s, manufactured by W.J. Jeffery & Co, London. It is numbered 2003. Can anyone advise me of the history of the manufacturer, and any other information about the model? Thank you.
Jeffery & Co
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Is there an address on the gun or just London?
In 1914, at the start of the First World War, the King Street shop was replaced by a smaller shop at 26 Bury Street, St James\'s, and the workshops at Rose and Crown yard closed.
In 1920 Charles Jeffery died and his nephew, Pierce Jeffery took over. The Queen Victoria Street premises closed in 1921 and in 1927 the firm moved to 9 Golden Square, Regent Street. At this time B Halliday was working for the company, he left to open his own business.
In 1953 the firm became a limited liability company, W J Jeffery & Co Ltd, and in 1955 moved to 5b Pall Mall.
In 1957 Westley Richards (Agency) Co Ltd took over the business and moved it to 23 Conduit Street.
In 1959 Holland & Holland took over, they held the records of the company but these are now held by J Roberts & Son of London. who also have a licence to manufacture under the Jeffery name.
In 1914, at the start of the First World War, the King Street shop was replaced by a smaller shop at 26 Bury Street, St James\'s, and the workshops at Rose and Crown yard closed.
In 1920 Charles Jeffery died and his nephew, Pierce Jeffery took over. The Queen Victoria Street premises closed in 1921 and in 1927 the firm moved to 9 Golden Square, Regent Street. At this time B Halliday was working for the company, he left to open his own business.
In 1953 the firm became a limited liability company, W J Jeffery & Co Ltd, and in 1955 moved to 5b Pall Mall.
In 1957 Westley Richards (Agency) Co Ltd took over the business and moved it to 23 Conduit Street.
In 1959 Holland & Holland took over, they held the records of the company but these are now held by J Roberts & Son of London. who also have a licence to manufacture under the Jeffery name.
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I agree with the above post that more information is required. Be that as it may; You have a very nice quality London double gun.
Jim
Jim
G
Guest
·Thank you to those who kindly responded to my query of yesterday.
The additional information I have identified is as follows:
The barrels are 30 inches, with a damask pattern. No 335 is stamped on the underside; 'W.J. Jeffery & Co Queen Victoria St. London E C' is engraved on the upper side between the barrels;
On the lock (boxlock) is engraved 'W.J. Jeffery & Co London; it has double triggers; there is light and simple engraving along all edges of the metal; No. 2003 is stamped on the metal plate to the rear of the trigger guard.
I would appreciate any more information that is available about the maker or the gun.
Regards,
DB
The additional information I have identified is as follows:
The barrels are 30 inches, with a damask pattern. No 335 is stamped on the underside; 'W.J. Jeffery & Co Queen Victoria St. London E C' is engraved on the upper side between the barrels;
On the lock (boxlock) is engraved 'W.J. Jeffery & Co London; it has double triggers; there is light and simple engraving along all edges of the metal; No. 2003 is stamped on the metal plate to the rear of the trigger guard.
I would appreciate any more information that is available about the maker or the gun.
Regards,
DB
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596 Posts
DB:
Sorry: I should have asked you to do this yesterday. Take the forearm off and remove the barrels. Tell us what is marked on the water table,this is the flat part of the receiver.* Also turn the barrels upside down and tell us if there is anything marked near the breech end. It certainly appears that you have a fairly plain but excellent quality British double. What I'm trying to determine at this point is whether it's proved for smokeless and what the chamber length may be. Even though it's probably damascus, it may have been proved for smokeless powder and it's possible that the damascus is an etched pattern on fluid steel barrels.
Note: *There may be symbols along with numbers.
Regards
Jim
Sorry: I should have asked you to do this yesterday. Take the forearm off and remove the barrels. Tell us what is marked on the water table,this is the flat part of the receiver.* Also turn the barrels upside down and tell us if there is anything marked near the breech end. It certainly appears that you have a fairly plain but excellent quality British double. What I'm trying to determine at this point is whether it's proved for smokeless and what the chamber length may be. Even though it's probably damascus, it may have been proved for smokeless powder and it's possible that the damascus is an etched pattern on fluid steel barrels.
Note: *There may be symbols along with numbers.
Regards
Jim
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596 Posts
Quite the contrary: Etching a damascus pattern was a practice carried out by numerous gunmakers when fluid steel barrels first came into common usage around the turn of the 20th Century.
At that time damascus was considered far superior to fluid steel both in use and appearance. It must be understood that the dynamics of smokeless powder which was just also coming into common use along with universal ignorance of the limitations of damascus steel vis a vis pressure was prevalent at that time. The original reason for making fluid steel barrels wasn't because it was superior it was because it was cheaper than damascus.
Also many of the prominent early 20th century shooters maintained that fluid steel barrrels have an annoying "ring" to them.
For these reasons; Gunmakers etched damascus patterns on barrels much as knife makers etched plain steel with damascus patterns to produce that effect. I have noted this on numerous occasions with well worn barrels where the etched damascus pattern has been worn through.
Jim
At that time damascus was considered far superior to fluid steel both in use and appearance. It must be understood that the dynamics of smokeless powder which was just also coming into common use along with universal ignorance of the limitations of damascus steel vis a vis pressure was prevalent at that time. The original reason for making fluid steel barrels wasn't because it was superior it was because it was cheaper than damascus.
Also many of the prominent early 20th century shooters maintained that fluid steel barrrels have an annoying "ring" to them.
For these reasons; Gunmakers etched damascus patterns on barrels much as knife makers etched plain steel with damascus patterns to produce that effect. I have noted this on numerous occasions with well worn barrels where the etched damascus pattern has been worn through.
Jim
G
Guest
·Hi Jim,
Thank you for your interest and help to date.
There are two, similar, marks on the water plate, one on each side: a 'v' topped by a coronet.
On the underside of the barrels there are five marks identical to each other, stamped parallel to each other, underneath each barrel. From the breech end they are as follows: '12'; the letter 'v' topped by a coronet; the letter 'G', with a vertical stroke through the bottom of the G, and topped by a coronet; a square containing a '12' and a 'c'; the word 'choke'.
I have examined the damascus pattern with a magnifying glass, and the damascus does seem to be etched onto the steel.
Thanks again,
Regards,
DB
Thank you for your interest and help to date.
There are two, similar, marks on the water plate, one on each side: a 'v' topped by a coronet.
On the underside of the barrels there are five marks identical to each other, stamped parallel to each other, underneath each barrel. From the breech end they are as follows: '12'; the letter 'v' topped by a coronet; the letter 'G', with a vertical stroke through the bottom of the G, and topped by a coronet; a square containing a '12' and a 'c'; the word 'choke'.
I have examined the damascus pattern with a magnifying glass, and the damascus does seem to be etched onto the steel.
Thanks again,
Regards,
DB
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596 Posts
DB:
I'm doing some of this from memory since I'm at work and my primary references are at home.
The V with the coronet is the London view mark.
The 12"C" is probably 12 "G"uage.
The surprising thing to me is there are no provisional or definitive proof marks from what you're telling me! Would you please take a closer look and see if the V coronet isn't a stylized CP coronet.
If this is true damascus, and I suspect this is the case, it still should have been proved for black powder and if of later manufacture may have been also proved for smokeless powder and so marked.
I should also have pointed out above that "etched damascus' was primarily used by less expensive manufactures to mimic the more costly damascus.
I'd really like to see some pictures of the flats and barrels of this gun.
Jim
I'm doing some of this from memory since I'm at work and my primary references are at home.
The V with the coronet is the London view mark.
The 12"C" is probably 12 "G"uage.
The surprising thing to me is there are no provisional or definitive proof marks from what you're telling me! Would you please take a closer look and see if the V coronet isn't a stylized CP coronet.
If this is true damascus, and I suspect this is the case, it still should have been proved for black powder and if of later manufacture may have been also proved for smokeless powder and so marked.
I should also have pointed out above that "etched damascus' was primarily used by less expensive manufactures to mimic the more costly damascus.
I'd really like to see some pictures of the flats and barrels of this gun.
Jim
G
Guest
·I will dig out information for you on etched damascus as soon as I possibly can but for now I'm going to try and help this person with the questions he has regarding his shotgun. BTW: I'f you've been paying attention to the whole thread it's reasonably certain that these are REAL damascus barrels anyway. The puzzling thing to me is the apparent lack of either a provisional or definitive proof. Perhaps you'd care to contribute here if you know anything about English proving.
Jim
Jim
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596 Posts
Shotgunworld Ambassador:
I asked about the CP several posts above and if this is it it's the definitive proof as you also indicated for blackpowder. I suspect this is the case. Also I don't think there was a requirement back then to mark the chamber length but suspect we're looking at 2 1/2" here.
Additional point for the owner: All is not lost if you wish to shoot this shotgun. First it should be thoroughly checked over by a qualified gunsmith who understands British blackpowder shotguns. If it is given a clean bill of health I believe that Navy Arms stocks 2 1/2" blackpowder shells that are suitable in the shotgun.
And alternative,albiet expensive, would be to ship the gun to England and have it re-proved.
Jim
I asked about the CP several posts above and if this is it it's the definitive proof as you also indicated for blackpowder. I suspect this is the case. Also I don't think there was a requirement back then to mark the chamber length but suspect we're looking at 2 1/2" here.
Additional point for the owner: All is not lost if you wish to shoot this shotgun. First it should be thoroughly checked over by a qualified gunsmith who understands British blackpowder shotguns. If it is given a clean bill of health I believe that Navy Arms stocks 2 1/2" blackpowder shells that are suitable in the shotgun.
And alternative,albiet expensive, would be to ship the gun to England and have it re-proved.
Jim
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332 Posts
I know I'll never find it again, but probably 6-8 months ago I stumbled onto a website that showed a document requesting that the government prohibit the practice. Don't remember the details, but I believe it was from an association of London gunmakers complaining about Belgian or Birmingham makers. I'll try to find it again.2563 said:
You mean this one? http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/f_hist/liege.htm ofcourse it's not English....
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That was it. Guess I didn't remember the details very well. 2563 is probably correct that faux-damasc finish was never used on English guns.
G
Guest
·I have looked more closely at the markings: what I described as a 'G' with a vertical stroke through its base does indeed look like a stylised CP with the coronet on top. The chambers are 2.5 inches.
I have also e-mailed J. Roberts & Son, of London, who now hold the licence for the Jeffery make; to date they have not responded.
Regards,
DB
I have also e-mailed J. Roberts & Son, of London, who now hold the licence for the Jeffery make; to date they have not responded.
Regards,
DB
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596 Posts
Some Loose Ends Here:
Thanks for the link to the site regarding the "Etched "Damascus barrels. I hadn't read or thought about this subject in years and would have had trouble digging out the original source(s). I believe that practice was more of a Continental(Belgium) doing than anywhere else. I don't know to what extent,if any it was carried out in England.
I'm glad the original poster here has found the correct information on his Jeffery and,if it were mine, I'd go thru the trouble of determining if it's in shootable condition. These's older guns are a pleasure to shoot, in my opinion.
Also; If the owner is interested , a pair of fluid steel 2 3/4" barrels could probably be made for this gun but it would be an expensive proposition.
One more thing: Shotgun Ambassador stated that "Damascus barrels "ring" equally with fluid steel barrels". I however have read to the contrary and the information is obscure. If you have a published source I'd be interested in it.
Regards
Jim
Thanks for the link to the site regarding the "Etched "Damascus barrels. I hadn't read or thought about this subject in years and would have had trouble digging out the original source(s). I believe that practice was more of a Continental(Belgium) doing than anywhere else. I don't know to what extent,if any it was carried out in England.
I'm glad the original poster here has found the correct information on his Jeffery and,if it were mine, I'd go thru the trouble of determining if it's in shootable condition. These's older guns are a pleasure to shoot, in my opinion.
Also; If the owner is interested , a pair of fluid steel 2 3/4" barrels could probably be made for this gun but it would be an expensive proposition.
One more thing: Shotgun Ambassador stated that "Damascus barrels "ring" equally with fluid steel barrels". I however have read to the contrary and the information is obscure. If you have a published source I'd be interested in it.
Regards
Jim
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