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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just a little historical musing, on a lazy Sunday, for once. I was watching the 1970's movie MacArthur, starring Gregory Peck.

Most here know KW2 abdicated amid the collapse of his Second Reich (realm) in 1918, fled to Holland, and that was the end of German monarchy.

In counterpoint to that, in the next war, Emperor Hirohito of course continued his (considerably modified) post-war realm until his death in 1989, to be followed by his son Akihito, the Emperor to this very day. They didn't even have the decency to rename him something less bellicose, like "King." Thailand has a king, so it's not an Asian thing. It's just unredeemed arrogance.

So, given that Japan's barbarism was the equal or worse of Germany's, and Japan's post-war admission and amendment has been far less than Germany's, why the different standard, since both were utterly defeated?

Old questions long ago answered I know, but such settled history is good to drag out once in a while, turn over in your mind, and share with friends to see what they think about it?

Certainly the physical vs potential presence of the Soviets weighed heavily on MacArthur and Truman, et al, and MacArthur was an asiaphile.

I wonder if it was simply our unfamiliarity with the "Asian mind" which caused us to treat them with kid gloves, and resulted in them being largely unchanged in their xenophobia to this day?
 

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One of the great pleasures in my life was to have been a security guard next to the Harry S Truman library at Independence, at one of UMKC's branch college campuses.

But today anybody can access the Truman library, without having to go to Independence, Missouri to do it. But any history buff that gets close to Kansas City should not leave without a personal visit to the Truman library.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/

The easy answer to the question of why Truman decided to allow Hirohito to remain the Emperor was that according the Shinto religion, their Emperor was a God. So when Harry dropped the bomb on those Japs once,,,, and they didn't give up,,,,, and Harry dropped another bomb,,,,

The Japanese God Emperor decided to cry Uncle and get his folks to all surrender before Harry dropped another bomb, and another bomb, and so on and so on.

You see, not only did this country invent the atom bomb using slide rules, we had a President smart enough to know not to kill the one and only man in Japan that could get the Japanese to surrender, and that was Emperor Hirohito, the Emperor God of Japan.

Harry knew enough about the Japanese to put the fear of Harry S Truman into their God, and then make their God tell them to bow down to Harry S Truman first, and their God second only to Harry S Truman.

Is this a great country, or what?
 

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nody said:
In counterpoint to that, in the next war, Emperor Hirohito of course continued his (considerably modified) post-war realm until his death in 1989,...

Certainly the physical vs potential presence of the Soviets weighed heavily on MacArthur and Truman, et al, and MacArthur was an asiaphile.

I wonder if it was simply our unfamiliarity with the "Asian mind" which caused us to treat them with kid gloves, and resulted in them being largely unchanged in their xenophobia to this day?
There's a little disconnect between "MacArthur was an asiaphile" which would indicate deep familiarity with the Asian mind, and saying our unfamiliarity with the Asian mind had us treat them with kid gloves.

We treated the Japanese pretty harshly and Mac Arthur and other American administrators ran the Japanese government far longer than Germany's.

Two other thing factor into this, to my thinking.

One is simply that removing the Emperor from his throne was the one condition of the "unconditional surrender" that was least likely to be accepted by both the Japanese military/civilian government and the ordinary citizens. Japan entered and finished the war with a split military/civilian government and it was the militarists who were mostly responsible for the "war of aggression" and the atrocities and war crimes. To some degree Hirohito was just a figurehead when it came to running the war.

The second thing is the Soviets, or lack thereof. We already had the Red Army occupying most of eastern Europe and half of Germany and short of war there was little else we could do to change that. There were no Soviet forces in the Japanese Home Islands and surrounding area. With the Communists rapidly taking over China and considering Japan's strategic location it was to our advantage to do everything necessary to keep Japan away from Soviet influence and entering their orbit, much like India, Egypt and many other strategically located Middle East nations.

Essentially, a friendly, allied and militarily capable Japan served much the same purpose for the US in the Western Pacific Rim as the Warsaw Pact nations did for the Soviet Union. Each was a great place for forward basing as well as being a buffer to soak up an enemy attack and keep them far from the homeland, whether that be the USA or Soviet Union.

Over the long run I think it pad off better than our policy towards Germany. While the Germans have ostensibly been the European NATO linchpin, as well as the most likely NATO vs. Soviet Union battleground, their various civilian governments haven't always been the most friendly to the US or willing to go along with our policies and demands.

The Japanese governments have been far more accommodating to the US and our goals. Even though the national armed forces of Germany or Japan wouldn't last a week if they had to stand alone against a Soviet/Russian attack, at least the Japanese have seemed a little more grateful to us for protecting them, and they also have to fear a destabilized or even a unified Communist Korea. They know we wont allow that so that's even more reason for them to accommodate us, and for the US to have treated them a bit better than the Europeans.
 

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Kaiser Bill was a prime mover in the militarisation of Germany and it's aggressive war planning. In that sense he was more of a war criminal than Hirohito, who was an adjunct to the military government that ruled in his name. Nevertheless Hirohito could and should have done more to prevent the Japanese doing what they did from the mid thirties onwards, so he can be dammed for his inactions if nothing else.

At the end of WWI Prime Minister Lloyd George, having at last climbed off his secretary, called for the Kaiser to be hanged, just about the only thing he ever got right IMO.

KWIII and The Son of Heaven were both lucky to escape the fictional Mr Jorrocks' dictum that "Rope's cheap."

Eug
 

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Just prior to dropping the big firecrackers, the US, Russia and UK had issued the Potsdam Declaration which laid out terms of surrender. These were not in fact "unconditional" at all, but did call for the unconditional surrender of the army. Even then, the troops were be allowed to return home to lead peaceful and productive lives, the Japanese people would not be enslaved or destroyed, industry would be allowed to flourish, some form of democratic government installed, and respect for human rights established. The Emperors' position wasn't mentioned, but prompt and utter destruction was.

The Japanese people, through the press, were issued with a redacted version of the Declaration; the peaceful return of the army, and non-enslavement clauses amongst others were left out.

The Suzuki Government didn't respond to the Declaration.

So the Allies didn't actually demand unconditional surrender, but did indeed offer reasonable terms whilst fudging on the Emperors' position.

Along came Thin Man and Little Boy after which Hirohito displayed previously hidden common sense and power of authority. The dick.

Eug
 

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Kaiser Bill died of old age in Holland, because when President Wilson spoke, Kaiser Bill listened, and he gave up his Hohenzollern throne and allowed his people to be saved from invasion and ruin, and countless American boys from dying in the invasion of Germany in 1919 that never happened.

Because America has enough good sense to only hang war criminals who go outside of the pale, and do things like torture prisoners, like Harry S Truman hung the Japanese officers who waterboarded our boys with their Blue Star mothers waiting for them back at home.

After having made the Japanese Shinto Emperor God bow down to Harry S Truman, Harry wasn't finished with the Japanese entirely. There was the matter of the Bataan Death March to settle, and all the other Japanese cruelty to our boys held as helpless prisoners, and since Harry was a officer in France in 1918, Harry knew first hand about war.

Read all about how waterboarding our prisoners worked out for the Japanese at the International Military Tribunal For The Far East, otherwise known as the "Japanese Nuremberg trials".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... e_Far_East

Harry S Truman even ordered that Tojo's hanging be filmed as a further lesson for the future would be torturers of American prisoners.


And of all the cruel Japanese that were hung by their necks until dead, perhaps the one that deserved it the most was Tojo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo

Harry S Truman let the Japanese Emperor live only after Hirohito told the Japanese people that Hirohito was not the Supreme Emperor God, and that Harry S Truman was their Supreme God, and to give up their war criminals who had tortured our boys, lest Harry drop the bomb on them, again.

Is this a great country, or what?

We don't just win wars, we change our enemy's religion, and give them a new one.

Oh, and in case anybody would like to give credit to Dugout Doug, instead of Harry S Truman, for changing the Shinto religion, then refer to what happened when Doug refused to be subordinate to Harry S Truman.

As the old joke used to say, Harry S Truman was the original sex education instructor,

Because "screwing" with Harry S Truman was impossible.

Harry did all the "screwing".:)
 

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SuperX,

That stuff you've been smoking, can I have some? That was like reading an LSD trip. 8)

I need my world view changing, things have been a bit fraught recently, and I haven't seen Lucy in The Sky With Diamonds for ever such a long time. Garn, givvus some!

Eug
 

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I grew up with the history of World War Two.

We were a Blue Star family.

Harry S Truman was sort of our God, you know?

I've known since I was a little kid that the Shinto religion regarded Emperor Hirohito as a God, and the only way Harry S Truman could get all of Japan to surrender was to change the Shinto religion.

Because, you see, my Uncle Jiggs was dreading the Invasion of Japan, that never happened, thanks entirely to the wisdom of Harry S Truman.

My Republican mother made sure I attended the funeral of Harry S Truman, with my family in Kansas City, including Uncle Jiggs and Aunt Mildred. Grandma was too old, or she'd have gone, too. Grandma always thanked Harry S Truman she didn't ever qualify to be a Gold Star Mother.

And I ain't forgot it.:)

I was there:


Oh, and Mama did not die in my arms, as a Republican,,,, but that's another story, that involves John McCain, Sarah Pallin, and the Fable of the Kenyan Birth.

Some of us never forgot the Bataan Death March, you know?

Our family never sang any long haired hippie druggie songs like Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.

We could sing either "Peace in the Valley" or "Smoke on the Water" by Red Foley, though:

But we preferred "Smoke on the Water"--- 1944--- Red Foley
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Coming back from the center of the universe, Independence, MO...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna ... e_Far_East
According to historian Herbert Bix, Brigadier General Bonner Fellers "immediately on landing in Japan went to work to protect Hirohito from the role he had played during and at the end of the war" and "allowed the major criminal suspects to coordinate their stories so that the emperor would be spared from indictment".[25]

Bix also argues that "MacArthur's truly extraordinary measures to save Hirohito from trial as a war criminal had a lasting and profoundly distorting impact on Japanese understanding of the lost war" and "months before the Tokyo tribunal commenced, MacArthur's highest subordinates were working to attribute ultimate responsibility for Pearl Harbor to Hideki Tōjō".[26] According to a written report by Shūichi Mizota, Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai's interpreter, Fellers met the two men at his office on March 6, 1946, and told Yonai, "it would be most convenient if the Japanese side could prove to us that the emperor is completely blameless. I think the forthcoming trials offer the best opportunity to do that. Tōjō, in particular, should be made to bear all responsibility at this trial".[27][28]

Historian John W. Dower wrote that the campaign to absolve Emperor Hirohito of responsibility "knew no bounds". He argued that with MacArthur's full approval, the prosecution effectively acted as "a defense team for the emperor", who was presented as "an almost saintly figure" let alone someone culpable of war crimes.[24] He stated, "Even Japanese activists who endorse the ideals of the Nuremberg and Tokyo charters, and who have labored to document and publicize the atrocities of the Shōwa regime, cannot defend the American decision to exonerate the emperor of war responsibility and then, in the chill of the Cold War, release and soon afterwards openly embrace accused right-winged war criminals like the later prime minister Nobusuke Kishi".[29]

Three justices wrote an obiter dictum about the criminal responsibility of Hirohito. Judge-in-Chief Webb declared, "no ruler can commit the crime of launching aggressive war and then validly claim to be excused for doing so because his life would otherwise have been in danger...It will remain that the men who advised the commission of a crime, if it be one, are in no worse position than the man who directs the crime be committed".[11]

Justice Henri Bernard of France concluded that Japan's declaration of war "had a principal author who escaped all prosecution and of whom in any case the present Defendants could only be considered as accomplices".[12]
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
eugene molloy said:
KWIII and The Son of Heaven were both lucky to escape the fictional Mr Jorrocks' dictum that "Rope's cheap."

Eug
I didn't mean for the OP title to create confusion, only interest.

There was of course no KW3; (just a typo, Eug?) that was just an ironic juxtaposition that there would have had to be had the war Kaiser, an impetuous and bellicose little cripple, been allowed not only to stay on his throne, but that his issue would reign to this day.

One wonders how truly blameless Hirohito was? He's been portrayed as, by office, unapproachable by any outside the court, and devoid of any power (in the war period, which started in 1924 , while he ascended in '26.) He was either the pure mushroom and figure head, or just damn lucky we needed his expediency?

My OP was wondering if the Kaiser had been left in nominal, diminished, post-WWI power, akin to say the Windsors, then his son, KWIII we'll call him, reigned during the Nazi terror. Would we have similarly exonerated him for the expediency of post-war cooperation?
 

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nody said:
eugene molloy said:
One wonders how truly blameless Hirohito was? He's been portrayed as, by office, unapproachable by any outside the court, and devoid of any power (in the war period, which started in 1924 , while he ascended in '26.) He was either the pure mushroom and figure head, or just damn lucky we needed his expediency?
As Emperor and titular Head of State he certainly had some blame for what pappenned, at least on a macro level. Hirohito didn't personally order the many atrocities committed by the military, which were part of the practice and culture of the Japanese military, but given his isolation and the power of the military junta how much power did he have to call a stop to it all. Remember that just the night before the surrender a was to be broadcast there was a military coup of sorts to kidnap the Emperor and destroy the taped surrender message. Even at the end the military wanted to fight on until there was no Japanese blood left to spill.

My OP was wondering if the Kaiser had been left in nominal, diminished, post-WWI power, akin to say the Windsors, then his son, KWIII we'll call him, reigned during the Nazi terror. Would we have similarly exonerated him for the expediency of post-war cooperation?
As to a Kaiser III, Germany after both wars was surrounded by victorious nations or occupied defeated ones. There was no expediency in maintaining continuity of government (we didn't in Japan either), and given the Kaisers familial ties to the British Royal Family, there was every advantage to removing him and his heirs from power. Except for one we will never know:

Had there been a Kaiser III and a stabilized Germany would Hitler ever have risen to power?
 

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There was of course no KW3; (just a typo, Eug?)
A brain fart.

SuperX Truman didn't induce a Jap surrender by changing Shinto doctrine a la Vatican II, he did it by dropping two FBBs. Even today the Shinto shrine at Yasukuni where war criminals are unashamedly revered gets visits from Government officials at high level. Any Shinto reversion can be safely called crocodile tears.

As a by the by, General Bill Slim who inflicted a crushing defeat on the Japanese in Burma, was instructed by MacArthur (his nominal C in C) at Japans defeat to treat all enemy officers with the utmost respect, including allowing them to keep their ceremonial swords for fear that doing otherwise would induce to naughty Nips to commit suicide.

Uncle Bill responded by gathering them all together and stated that anyone wishing to kill themselves would be given every assistance, and then hanging Mutaguchis sword over his fireplace back home.

Eug
 

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eugene molloy said:
As a by the by, General Bill Slim who inflicted a crushing defeat on the Japanese in Burma, was instructed by MacArthur (his nominal C in C) at Japans defeat to treat all enemy officers with the utmost respect, including allowing them to keep their ceremonial swords for fear that doing otherwise would induce to naughty Nips to commit suicide.

Uncle Bill responded by gathering them all together and stated that anyone wishing to kill themselves would be given every assistance, and then hanging Mutaguchis sword over his fireplace back home.

Eug
Love it. :lol:
 

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Cerberus said:
eugene molloy said:
As a by the by, General Bill Slim who inflicted a crushing defeat on the Japanese in Burma, was instructed by MacArthur (his nominal C in C) at Japans defeat to treat all enemy officers with the utmost respect, including allowing them to keep their ceremonial swords for fear that doing otherwise would induce to naughty Nips to commit suicide.

Uncle Bill responded by gathering them all together and stated that anyone wishing to kill themselves would be given every assistance, and then hanging Mutaguchis sword over his fireplace back home.

Eug
Love it. :lol:
Me too. Anyone interested in a first hand account of the war in Burma should read "Quartered Safe Out Here" by George MacDonald Fraser, author of the Flashman Papers. Despite the trauma he endured, Mr. Fraser wrote with the same wit that make his other books so enjoyable.

https://www.amazon.com/Quartered-Safe-O ... 1629142034

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/ ... naldfraser
 

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Back to the original post, inquiring is there a Kaiser Bill III on the Japanese throne.

Well, there's a huge, quantum difference between the Japanese Emperor today and the last Hohenzollern Emperor of Imperial Germany.

Kaiser Bill knew he wasn't a God, and the mother that rocked his cradle was the oldest daughter of Queen Victoria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria,_Princess_Royal

Young William knew that he bore the famous name of his paternal grandfather, William I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_I,_German_Emperor

And really, when you think about it, instead of claiming to trace the throne of the Japanese emperor back thousands of years, William II of Imperial Germany knew that it was really Bismark who'd founded the Second Reich within his own lifetime.

So, when the time came to chose between what was best for Germany, and what was best for himself, history records that William II renounced the throne and boarded a train for neutral Holland, where he lived out the remainder of his days in peace and quiet, until he died of old age with a Nazi guard of honor at his front door.

President Wilson didn't need to kill Kaiser Bill, in order for Kaiser Bill to do the right thing and get the hell out of Germany, or else.

Kaiser Bill was a pussycat.

Hirohito was an Emperor of Japan who was a God!

Well, until after Harry S Truman schooled him on a new religion.:)
 

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Agreed an excellent read; y'all mind the Cumbrian dialect now!!

So is Bill Slim's autobiographical work "Defeat into Victory" where the tale above comes from. Less than $5 from .... http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=Slim&sts=t&tn=defeat+into+victory

Bill went to the same school as me, but he probably wasn't too moved by the fact. :wink:

Superx, Where do you get this stuff? The Kaiser high tailed it because Germany was in turmoil with revolution breaking out and Bethmann-Hollweg(?) warned him that parts of the disaffected armies were looking to put his head on a pike as a reward for leading them into military and social disaster. It might have been Hindenberg who slipped him The Black Spot, but I can't remember.

He also took Falkenhayn with him who'd earned the Landsers fond regard for inflicting 300,000 casualties on them at Verdun and might otherwise have terminated his contract at a ropes end up a lamp post.

Eug
 

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In our family, we don't sing all that many World War One songs, but we all tell the beautiful story of Sgt. Alvin York, who until this day, is regarded as both the most decorated soldier of WWI and the most famous Campbellite, far more famous than Alexander Campbell, himself!

Look at this beautiful news reel brought to you by FDR on the death of Alvin York!

What a production! It even ends with Alvin York and a Gold Star Mother! Bravo!!!


But our family tells that Alvin York didn't kill one more German soldier than he was able to account to Christ himself, on the Great Judgement Morning. He captured many, many times more Germans than he killed, and York accomplished that by the help of a captured German officer that spoke both English and German, or else York might have killed every one of those Germans, you know?

A Campbellite filled with righteousness in defense of America is extremely persuasive, until the enemy surrenders, and behaves like all Christians should. Ask those German soldiers' families that died of old age, that York didn't have to shoot, how quick they gave up when their officer told them that York was going to keep shooting them until they came out with their hands up, about peaceful Campbellites.

Campbellites are best known for their "pacifist" hero Sgt. Alvin York!

Our family is a Blue Star singing Campbellite family, remember?

And one more thing, that we know of for certain.

My maternal grandmother was a young girl, when her childhood sweetheart was killed in the Battle of the Argonne Forest, and when in her grief she looked down from her window and saw my maternal grandfather, at the victory celebrations after November 11, 1918---

Grandpa was a recent widower, and 17 years older than she, and owned both a brand new buggy, and a brand new car, a bottom land farm, had two years of college at Weaubleau, and a wife recently dead from the sixth attempt to give birth to his child.

Grandma said that Grandpa had the prettiest wavy red hair she'd ever seen, looking down at him.

Grandpa always said that all he saw was the most beautiful young girl in the world smiling down on him, with long locks of wavy, raven black hair to her waist.

Grandpa couldn't sing a note, but he always smiled and watched us, while he smoked a cigarette, pipe, cigar, or chewed tobacco, and we did all the playing and singing.

Grandpa died a happy man at age 92.

And me and Grandma and all six of my first cousins were there, as was his only son Gerald (Jiggs), his wife, Aunt Bobby, and Mama and Aunt Mildred, and her husband, Uncle Ben, and Mama's second husband, and my first step father, after my Daddy died, who played the hero, checking his pulse, and pronouncing him dead in Uncle Jigg's arms.

The Death of Grandpa was a helluva show, and it took several days, and there was singing, and good eats, and sweet tea and coffee, and campers in the yard, and everything.

And while my family might recall some of the details differently, we always get the legends just exactly, right.

Kaiser Bill was a *****-.

But Harry had to drop two atomic bombs before the Emperor God of Japan saw the sweet light of Christian reason, and bowed down before Former Grand Master of the Masons of Missouri, Harry S Truman.

Harry S Truman was a Mason, you know, and he knew all the secret handshakes and rituals, and everything, and the importance of persuading the leader of Japan to surrender.

http://freemasoninformation.com/masonic ... residents/

Harry saved millions more lives than he had to take dropping those two atomic bombs.

And one of those lives was probably my Uncle Jiggs'.
 

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Harry Truman left office with the lowest approval rating since FDR and the lowest overall approval rating for his 8 years as well......

Hard to see many republicans that interested in seeing the man when he is gone.....
 

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After all this great history on the Kaiser and the world wars
makes me feel insignificant to add this one little bit, but here
goes anyhow.

Why was he called the Kaiser? Answer it came from Latin.

Yes, Caesar the leader of Rome was pronounced in Latin
as Ki Sar. That is a long i in Ki. Notice the difference in
pronunciation of:

Kaiser and Ki Sar

Yep when Caesar got translated to German, they translated
the sound, not the spelling.

Note that when people refer to Caesar here today they say
Caesar as see zer. The Germans apparently saved the
pronunciation of Caesar pretty well, referring to the leader.
 
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