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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How is this rule applied to shooters who have little or no records to review from the country of origin?
During a recent event a shooter from another country competed in E class as his NSCA records showed was his current class. He had been a member of the NSCA for a number of years but had no targets recorded.
His first event was FITASC and shot as an E class shooter. His score was 41/50 that won the class by a 12 bird margin. His next event was the Prelim event were his score was 94/100 and again won E class by a 12 bird margin.
That was all during the Saturday events schedule and quite frankly the shoot management didn't have any reason to even look at his scores until the other shooters in the events began to question who this fellow is and did he have any " known ability " that should have moved him up to an appropriate class. The protest committee was asked by shoot management to conduct a review to see if the shooter should be re-classified.
He had no records that were available so shooters from the same area were asked if he was known to have shot other targets in some other organizations. Several shooters from the same area knew him as a very accomplished shooter who at one time in the past was an accomplished International Bunker and Skeet shooter.
The committee decided on Sunday afternoon to discuss with him the option of moving up in class but he had already shot the Main Event and left to make the long drive home.
By all accounts from the folks that knew him he is a very nice quy who would not want to be known as a sandbagger so with out his input it was decided to place him in B class. He would still win the events in B and it would not cost him any money but instead of 12 punches in E class he would only get 5 punches in B class.
Well when he got home and looked online he called the club and was furious with club management.
Did we do the right thing and how could we have done better?
 

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I think your mistake was doing it after the fact, and without telling the shooter. Well intentioned, but still a mistake. I'd be upset too if I learned from the internet that I had been reclassified without an opportunity to explain/appeal.

JMO but I think you should have let the results stand for the shoot in question, but suggested strongly to the shooter in question that he declare into a higher class at the next shoot. Had he refused and continued to compete in the lower classes, a club has the right to ask NSCA to reclassify the shooter.
 

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Making the adjustment after the fact also gives the perception that you were helping the person who was declared the winner in E class a favor. Not a good process. AFTER the shoot, the rules provide for certain people such as delegates to ask the NSCA to perform a review. Timing is everything. Wonder how the people in B class now feel?
 

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birdshooter1 said:
I think your mistake was doing it after the fact, and without telling the shooter. Well intentioned, but still a mistake. I'd be upset too if I learned from the internet that I had been reclassified without an opportunity to explain/appeal.

JMO but I think you should have let the results stand for the shoot in question, but suggested strongly to the shooter in question that he declare into a higher class at the next shoot. Had he refused and continued to compete in the lower classes, a club has the right to ask NSCA to reclassify the shooter.
Maybe it was pushed by the guy who finished second in E class so he could win first in E?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am a National Delegate and have asked for reviews in the past but the rules clearly give the club the right and responsibility to evoke the " known ability " rule.

This decision was not done after the shoot was over but during the final day. The shooters score in the Sunday Event was not known and an effort to find him before he left the property was done.

Please keep in mind that waiting for the NSCA review would hold up results for several days.
There didn't seem to be a good outcome and someone was going to get upset.
We have had several International and NSSA shooters compete in events that clearly were not in the proper class but NSCA placed them so what do you do? The club is left in a bad spot and the last thing any club wants is to piss off the customers.
My question was really more for the NSCA folks in San Antonio or some of the Florida clubs that deal with shooters from all over the world
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hell ya it was pushed by the E class shooters who knew that this shooter had been placed in a class that was clearly not correct. When you have 280 shooters at the club house all talking about who the heck is the guy in E class that shoot a 94 it gets as ugly as a shotgun forum web post!
 

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the Rev said:
This decision was not done after the shoot was over but during the final day. The shooters score in the Sunday Event was not known and an effort to find him before he left the property was done.

My question was really more for the NSCA folks in San Antonio or some of the Florida clubs that deal with shooters from all over the world
From your original post, it seemed as if you didn't make the decision until after the guy turned in a 94. Even so, if you didn't inform the shooter before he left the property, that's a problem. And while you may have made the E class shooters happier, I'm sure the B class guys aren't real thrilled.

BTW, if you didn't want feedback from the general populace, you should have said so.
 

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I am not sure it could be changed after the fact. It has to be changed at the next shoot.

If he had shot a 65 we wouldn't talking about it.
 

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The guy was clearly in the wrong class. You couldnt of known this until you saw the scores he was shooting in multiple events. So you did the only thing you could do and put him in a class closer to his ability. I think you did the right thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
All feedback is helpful and will be taken in to account. Hindsight is 20/20 and at this point I certainly wish we had contacted him before he left the club. That was clearly our fault.
As for the posting of the 94 score. He was an unknown shooter to all of the club members and his ability could not of been determined by anyone other than San Antonio.
If he filled out his membership application in 2013 and didn't check the box that states that you shot targets in another organization then shame on him. If he did check the box and NSCA placed him in E class incorrectly that shame on them.
 

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I was watching the results as I knew several people who shot there. When I first the E class winner with a 94, I thought to myself "This is why you don't start everybody in E". Clearly he had no history, so it was impossible for shoot management to know.

IF the shooter had a record in other organized competitions, it was his responsibility to put himself in the right class.

If he was a guy who shot a lot and signed up for his first NSCA shoot, well we just F'ed him because that's where the NSCA told him to start. I would be furious too, but that's an emotional reaction to a personal situation rather than a solution to a larger problem.

12 punches in E is not going to do anything for him nor is it going to put him in the right class (D).

I commend you for trying to do something about it. It's not an easy choice either way. I think by making sure he wasn't out any money you did the best you could have done. Sucks for the rest of the guys in B class, but it is what it is.

I think the best option going forward is to put everybody new into AA and then automatically re-classify them after 300 targets. Of course, I'm in AA so my opinion may be biased.
 

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I think you guys did the right thing. If people don't have enough integrity to declare themselves into the right class, the powers that be should.
 

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He did more to make shooters not compete than any half-a$$ Master.

You did the right thing , Rev. Bravo.
 

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To me it is partly on the shooter to know his ability from other shooting games he has competed in and to make sure he is placed properly. It is even a line item in your nsca registration.
 

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First, I think you made the best call that you could under the circumstances.

Second, I think this goes a long way toward making the case for placing all "new" shooters in a "registered not classified" category until they have recorded 500 registered targets so that there is an actual data base for class assignment.
 

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mwr01 said:
First, I think you made the best call that you could under the circumstances.

Second, I think this goes a long way toward making the case for placing all "new" shooters in a "registered not classified" category until they have recorded 500 registered targets so that there is an actual data base for class assignment.
Interesting idea, I never heard that before.
 

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That's how it was done when NSCA used averages. Of course it was easier to assign class when all that was required was to calculate an average, but I think it could work with the punch system too - maybe using CCR?
 

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This happened to a guy I shot with in Texas at the US Open at Caney Creek.

He was from Canada and thus didn't shoot many NSCA targets and was at the open for the PSCA qualifier. They had him in D class and after day 1 was well in the lead for D. One of the guys in our squad was a well known Master class shooter and talked to the shoot staff and they moved him to AA after the first day. The next day the M class guy in our squad asked him if the shoot staff talked to him about being moved and he said he had been informed by them and he was cool with it as he knew he was well over a D class shooter.

Most people are fine with these kinds of circumstances if they are handled properly.

As for the guy being upset about being moved to and winning B class... I wonder which class had a higher payout. There have been several times I wished I was in a lower class (usually E) because the payout was a couple hundred more than the class I was in. Since making A class it has been slim pickings for winnings, its like an awkward transition class in AZ right now, there are a lot of B shooters and a lot of AA shooters but it seems there's usually around 10 or so A shooters which kinda sucks for the bigger shoots. Maybe its a good thing though because I am in no hurry to make Master
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for the feedback. We will never do this again without having the discussion with the shooter personally. Not saying it would change the outcome but certainly I wouldn't have the feeling that I didn't give him a chance to defend himself.
 

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It wasn't until after the person shot that you had evidence of known ability. A known ability classification is made in SA at the request of certain people.
An NSCA Club, State Association, National Delegate,
member (shooter) or member of the Advisory Council
has the right to request a known ability review of a
shooter's record if it appears that he/she is competing
in a class other than his/her true level of ability. This
request must be in writing. Upon review by the NSCA
ClassificationCommittee, the shooter may be assigned
a different class.
I also see the section about shoot officials putting people up in class based on known ability and if they get punches they move up. No punches they stay put. This would only apply for the one shoot in question.
So the big question is this. When is known ability applied? Who determines where to place people after the shoot looking at scores shoot day? Your on a slippery slope when you start manipulating results after the fact.
 
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