[tcastrosantos]

Hi all--

Looking for advice here, saw a recent post with a similar tag, but wanted to follow up with a couple of specific questions. I'm looking for something under 1K, used is fine. I've seen a couple of Aya's for about 800 and also a Browning Citori. I know the Citori is popular, but am looking for more feedback on the Aya in particular. Also other suggestions of what to look for in this pricerange would be great. I'd prefer to keep it under $600, but have heard that at that price I might run into getting less than I pay for.

 

[Pumpster]

AyA and Ugartechea ("Uggie") are two splendid Spanish gumnakers and their boxlocks can be had for less than $1000 used and are probably the best buy in SxSs out there.

They actually have some life to them!

Very well made shotguns.

And yes, unless you know a lot about guns you'll be taking a risk at less than $600. If you want to take that risk you can get older Uggie boxlocks for that price.

 

[heelerman]

Pumpster is quite correct. The AYAs and the uggi are both really fine guns. On the low end there is the AYA matador. a box lock gun. sturdy and reliable. The Uggis tend to be pretty plain Jane sort of guns in that price range but perfectly servicable.
The Citori is made by Miroku, who markets guns under their own name, for Browning and once upon a time for Charles Daily. IMO These guns are some of the biggest "sleepers" and best value for dollar used guns on the market today.

 

[Bulldog50]

You can pick up a nice used Ithaca / SKB 20 ga sxs for about $750 or less. Here are a couple of links. These would make fine bird guns.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =141438633

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =141758523

 

[tcastrosantos]

Thanks for these helpful replies. One other issue that's related is that I understand that some models (again, maybe a potential problem with the Ayas?) is that parts can be hard to find and therefore lead to trouble. Any sense of repair history, cost of ownership, etc among these options. ?

 

[Pumpster]

You raise a good point about repairs and parts. I have an AyA #2 (sidelock) 20 ga that I've had for a few years. I have put thousands of rounds thru it without a hiccup.

If you look at the Spanish gun forum you'll find a lot of discussion about Spanish shotguns but what is absent is complaint - nobody seems to have mechanical problems.

I own 7 Spanish SxSs with no problems.

There are a whole bunch of older AyAs on Gunbroker (really cheap but the stocks need refinishing)

Having said all this, a warning: DO NOT BUY AN OLDER SPANISH SINGLE TRIGGER. Most are OK but in general it is best to avoid them. All my guns are double trigger and they all work perfectly. The single-trigger guns were made for the American market and were made to a price point.

But in my serious opinion an AyA boxlock is perhaps the best buy and you will be getting a gun that has some handling nicities and doesn't feel like a 2x4!

 

[tcastrosantos]

Thanks Pumpster--

So I'm actually looking at a Matador on Gunbroker that has a single trigger.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =141640497

Not sure about the age; what would you call an 'older' gun? Also, I didn't see those older models you were talking about. Maybe I'm not structuring my search properly. Any chance you can point me to them?

I really appreciate your prompt replies.

 

[Pumpster]

Matador is known to be a sturdy gun. However, it does have that single trigger. Also, a Matador has a pistol grip and a beavertail forend. OK with a ST, but not what you'd really want for an upland bird SxS. I wne grouse hunting this AM with a SxS, DT and English stock. A real joy to shoot.

On gunbroker, search for AyA and sort with lowest price first. There about 10 guns under $450.

An "older" Spanish gun would, in my usage, be from the 1970s to about mid 80s. I wouldn't get one much older than about 1970.

A lot of these guns have pitted or "dinged" (dented) barrels. Be sure to ask and don't bother buying one that is either pitted or dinged. These guns are all recent imports from Europe and the pitting comes from crappy post-war ammo and not cleaning.

All will need the stocks refinished if you want a "snazzy-looking" gun. I refinished 4 stocks recently and am working on the fifth today!

Try Guns International also. Also, look at some of the better dealers - they often have AyAs or (especially) Uggies at low prices and you can be assured of better cosmetics.

 

[Pumpster]

Oh, by the way, you might find it useful to post on the Spanish Guns forum and ask those guys about the inexpensive AyAs and Uggies. They might even know of one or two.

Try:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=140830941

AARGH!!! I just noticved that you want a 20 ga. Sorry - the older Spanish guns are mostly 12 ga.

Here's a 20:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141656834

And check this for brand-new:

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugarUC1.htm

 

[heelerman]

I have a SS matador in 20. It has been in the shop hal a dozen times and gets worse. Double triggers man. Besides you'll have the fastest, mostest trust worthyest gun that they ever was.

 

[heelerman]

Should have been SSS single selective trigger. Oh make sure you get an ejector gun.

 

[tcastrosantos]

I didn't quite understand this last post. Are you saying that single triggers are ok if it's sss? I have no idea what that means, I thought all single triggers were selective...I'm a newby to the whole sxs thing, so please be patient.

Also (and to the group)--any education you could offer about the differences between boxlock, sidelock, and ejector types would be great. This last post recommends getting ejectors...I guess I assumed I'd prefer them but was thinking that might be optional as I rarely shoot, load, and shoot again within a few seconds (not that lucky in this part of New England, where on a good day I see 2-4 grouse total).

 

[heelerman]

Tcast,
You bet. I was speaking of single selective trigger sss Not all single triggers are selective. On SxS guns, box locks are the strongest and most reliable as a general rule. Side locks are a bit more delicate, involve more hand work and cost more. The sole advantage to side locks, aside form great big engraving feilds and an over all stunning grace (can ya tell I shoot a side lock) is that they tend to be just a little lighter, slimmer and livelier. The advantages to double trigger guns are many fold. First, they are highly reliable, as what you really have is two seperate guns married to a common stock. Meaning, that should you have a failure in the lock system, broken firing pin, broken spring. sear failure (all not to likley) You still have a working gun in your hand, albeit a single shot. A single trigger gun, pump or auto is pretty much done for the day.
Ejectors. SxS guns come with extractors that lift out spent hulls high enough for removal by hand and automatic ejector guns that fling the hulls out upon opening. Leaving two empty holes for you to refill. This makes the double trigger auto eject guns very fast in service.
An aside. IMHO you being new to the game are already on the good road. It takes some men many years to come to where yo are already. Some never do get it. Spend whatever money you spend well. there are a pile of junk guns out there new in your price rangs. You will do very well in the used market and I will bet dollars to road apples that if you buy any reputable brand and do nothing but shoot it and love it for say, five years. You will be able to sell it for at least what you paid for it and possibly more.
Buy Stoger, Huglu, Bakail, Cz and some others, you loose right from the get go.

 

[tcastrosantos]

Hi Folks:

I'm still looking and thought I'd renew this thread. I'm having some trouble finding 'just the thing', and am widening my search a bit (also happy to hear other suggestions). After the posts I saw here I focused on aya and Uggie, but have recently come across some other names, Zabala, Kestrel, and Interarms. Can you folks offer any feedback/insights on these guns?

Thanks!

 

[sneem]

Check out the CZ guns. You can get them brand new for well under $1000. They would have factory warranty and you can get one in just about any configuration you want.

 

[MGF]

Personally, I'd go AyA or Uggie. The AyA 4/53 fits me like a dream, while I find the Uggies a bit short in the LOP.

If the Uggies turn you on, Lion Country Supply has some reasonable NIB prices and might have some used guns in stock, too. They, along with the fellow in Aspen, are Uggie importers. I'd give 'em a call.

The guns from the fellow in Aspen are pretty, and I hear he's great to deal with, but I think you're paying extra for embellishment features. That's not always a bad thing, but if it's going to be a gun that sees the field a lot, I'd as soon save the bucks for practice ammo. JM0/YMMV.

The SKB mentioned earlier also sounds like a decent idea. They make a sound firearm.

Good luck.

 

[Frank Lopez]

Castrosantos,

While I am all in favor of SxS guns (for the most part they are all I hunt with), there may be a bit of a problem with them in meeting your listed requirements. In your title, you state that you want the gun for pheasants and grouse. Without knowing where you are, and the type of pheasants coverts you may encounter, there may be a wide gulf in the choke requirements/ For example, if you plan on using the gun to go after late season Iowa roosters, you're gonna need a good bit of choke. Likewise, if you plan on chasing grouse through typical New England coverts, something more open is in order. If that is the case, I'd recommend the Citori for its choke tubes.

However, if your hunting takes you to fairly close coverts for both pheasants and grouse, as is the case here in the east with the preponderance of state released birds, then a nice 20ga SxS choked IC/M will do you just fine. I would recommend the Ugartechea over the AyA because as good as the AyAs are, they tend to be slightly over priced, in my estimation. Don't misunderstand me, the AyAs are fine guns. But the same or better quality can be had for less money with a Ugartechea. And, as long as you ar elooking on the used market, generally speaking the old Victor Sarasquetas are amoung the best deals available.

Frank

 

[henderson]

whittakerguns.com has the franchi highlanders on sale for $850

 

[tcastrosantos]

As usual, rapid, great replies. To fill out, I'm in Western New England (tight coverts). I've heard mixed reviews of the CZ's, so would also be interested in more on those. The Spanish guns have captured my interest, but am trying to keep an open mind.

 

[tcastrosantos]

In the interest of the open mind, those franchi highlanders look pretty nice (but note the single trigger). Anybody have any opinions on quality, reliability, value retention for these guns?