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Browning Citori O/U 20 Gauge
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read that the Fiocchi 209 primer may be substituted for the Win209 primer.

So, here's the first reload that I'm thinking about:

20 Gauge
Win AA hull
Super handicap powder 12.5 grains
Lead shot 3/4 ounce of #7-1/2
Wad CB 1075-20
Primer Fiocchi 209 (instead of Win209)

I've read that the Fiocchi is slightly larger and prone to producing weak loads in cold temperatures. So I plan to stay with the Fiocchi once started, and try a different reload when it gets cold.

Does this seem reasonable? Am I doing anything that's obviously risky?

Disclaimer: I'm a total newb at reloading and prone to making typos and other silly mistakes. Don't follow me.
 

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There really is no primer substitution. Every primer reacts differently with different powders. So the recommendation is to always stay with powder manufacturers recommendations. You can go to Hodgdon website. Look up your powder and use recommended loads. Be careful with what you do or you may end up with higher pressure than recommended.
 

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You shouldn't be subbing primers......but in this case it is such an anemic load to begin with, you will be fine as far as raising chamber pressure. If anything pressure is going to drop and it might drop more than you want.
 
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Oh give me a break......Fiocchi primers trying to light off a double based ball powder is NOT going to create any dangerous loads. As I said the whole deal is pretty anemic to begin with.
 

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Here's an email reply I received from Alliant when I posted a question on their 'Ask the Experts' web page:

Now this is Alliant not Hodgdon but I believe it still applies.

His load using a Ched. primer has a pressure of 9,900 so lets add the possible of an additional 2500 that's 12,400 well above specifications.
Now it may not be that much or anywhere close to that but there is no way you know unless it is tested. I will always load according to published data or have it tested.

WinchesterSuper HcpChed. 209CB 1075-2012.59,900 PSI1,150


Here is the rule of thumb when it comes to a primer swap in shotshells. This is based upon two independent studies where when just the primer was
changed, a swing in pressure was noted by as much as 2500 PSI. This was found in not one, but both studies done.

So, if pressures fall between 6500 – 8500 PSI, a primer swap can be done. But, if the pressures fall outside of this window, stick to the tested load recipe.

Thanks,
Technical Service
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer
 

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Browning Citori O/U 20 Gauge
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for this discussion. I'll plan to load a half dozen and send them in to Precision for testing.

Are ya'll comfortable with this idea, or should I do more to determine if it's safe, or not do it at all?
 
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Here's an email reply I received from Alliant when I posted a question on their 'Ask the Experts' web page:

Now this is Alliant not Hodgdon but I believe it still applies.

His load using a Ched. primer has a pressure of 9,900 so lets add the possible of an additional 2500 that's 12,400 well above specifications.
Now it may not be that much or anywhere close to that but there is no way you know unless it is tested. I will always load according to published data or have it tested.

WinchesterSuper HcpChed. 209CB 1075-2012.59,900 PSI1,150


Here is the rule of thumb when it comes to a primer swap in shotshells. This is based upon two independent studies where when just the primer was
changed, a swing in pressure was noted by as much as 2500 PSI. This was found in not one, but both studies done.

So, if pressures fall between 6500 – 8500 PSI, a primer swap can be done. But, if the pressures fall outside of this window, stick to the tested load recipe.

Thanks,
Technical Service
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer

Uh, no. SAAMI MAP for 20 gauge is 12,000 PSI. The OP is replacing the Winchester 209 not the Cheddite and according to Hodgdon the WInchester primer in that load produces 9,700 PSI. There is no way on earth that a FIocchi primer is going to increase pressure by 2,500 PSI over the Winchester primer and even if it did that would make it 12,200 PSI, hardly worth a look.

I stand by my statement.
 

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Thanks for this discussion. I'll plan to load a half dozen and send them in to Precision for testing.

Are ya'll comfortable with this idea, or should I do more to determine if it's safe, or not do it at all?
You're new and have yet to learn the level of experience many members have. Due to the components shortage, primer swapping has been a two sided issue forcing many to offer their very best opinion based on their experience, while other are adamant not deviating from the 'Bible'.
SGW official position, as it should be, is follow approved load recipes.
But, I believe the Braintrust, when taken in its entirety is plenty safe for me. We're talking many have 40-60 years of experience. Many have their PhDs equivalent.
I would have no reservations preceding to load and shoot your mix.
But, since you plan to send in 6 to advance the science anyway, w t H.ll.
Be sure to post the results.
Cheers,
H
 

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The load listed is only 9,700 psi at 1,140 fps. In my opinion, I would shoot that load all day long without a worry.
I wouldn't waste my time or money on testing a load like that unless your are just curious to see the difference, if any, was of interest. The only primers I would not interchange with are the Federal 209a and the CCI 209 Magnum.
If your load was at 11,500 psi I would stay strictly with listed data but low pressure/low velocity stuff, not so much.
I too am new at this, only been doing it for 50 years.
 

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I wouldn’t hesitate to make that change and I have been loading 50+ years
 

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The OP could call Hodgdon support tomorrow morning. If it’s a safe load I’m sure they will tell you. I’ve called Hodgdon and Alliant previously and followed their direction.
Of course. I did not mean to disrespect anyones advice. Only to couple the concerns with current events. By all means, satisfy your concerns but respect those who's knowledge allows them to take a different path. I read your idea above and all I think of is Lawyers, Law Suits, frighten little experts, knuckleheads pissing on their bush...marking their territory.
Right now, the Trust is batting 100%.
Play ball!

H
 

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So you do not mean to disrespect anyone’s advice and yet you do. I too have been loading pistol, rifle and shotgun for 50 plus years am I part of the “Trust”? You read my idea and all you think of is lawyers, lawsuits and knuckleheads pissing on their bush marking their terrority. That’s what I’m doing? Dog chaser wrote.
You shouldn't be subbing primers.
But then goes on to say go ahead and do that as do several others. Please tell me with the components the OP intends to use exactly what is the chamber pressure? Several say it is safe so exactly what is it? You are giving advise to a new loader and basically telling him to go ahead and load whatever you determine is safe. If it’s not safe whose head does it fall on? If anyone wants to load something that is not published that’s on them but to give advise on unpublished loads is not something in my opinion that should be done. But I’m just someone who is not as knowing as others.
 

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So you do not mean to disrespect anyone’s advice and yet you do. I too have been loading pistol, rifle and shotgun for 50 plus years am I part of the “Trust”? You read my idea and all you think of is lawyers, lawsuits and knuckleheads pissing on their bush marking their terrority. That’s what I’m doing? Dog chaser wrote.

But then goes on to say go ahead and do that as do several others. Please tell me with the components the OP intends to use exactly what is the chamber pressure? Several say it is safe so exactly what is it? You are giving advise to a new loader and basically telling him to go ahead and load whatever you determine is safe. If it’s not safe whose head does it fall on? If anyone wants to load something that is not published that’s on them but to give advise on unpublished loads is not something in my opinion that should be done. But I’m just someone who is not as knowing as others.

I understand what you mean, and I have posted a thread about it a while back. The issue is folks not being able to get the exact primer. US made primers are very difficult to get. But this substitution is not going to get anyone in trouble.

Do I think this is a top notch idea? No, as I am about 99% positive that the pressure will drop off, which I am not a big fan of. However if that substitution will keep the OP shooting and out of trouble, which it will, let the gentleman have at it. The problem with this substitution will very likely be poor cold weather performance.......which does happen with Fiocchi primers and double based powders.

What I don't understand is that this substitution falls in line with your correspondence with Alliant. Not sure I understand the problem.
 

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So you do not mean to disrespect anyone’s advice and yet you do. I too have been loading pistol, rifle and shotgun for 50 plus years am I part of the “Trust”? You read my idea and all you think of is lawyers, lawsuits and knuckleheads pissing on their bush marking their terrority. That’s what I’m doing?
No

I look forward to reading your future contributions and value your opinions posted within this thread.
Thanks,
H
 

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The only time I have had an issue swapping primers. Involved 700X( USA manufactured lot) and Cheddite primers. I for one have no issue with swapping Fiocchi for Winchester in this load.
 

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This is exactly why I was at first hesitant in getting into shotshell reloading. I've reloaded tons of brass cartridges and have worked up loads and can tell the signs of reaching pressure limits, hard extractions, flattened primers, cratered primers, etc. But shotshell reloading has all these components that look the same and have recipes where substitutions are absolutely forbidden. But my buddies tell me there is nothing to worry with my loadings. I'm only loading skeet at low pressures, substituting various hulls and primers because of availability issueds (except no "hot" primers), and using only green dot powder, WAA12 wads and 1 1/8 oz #8 shot, I should have no concerns. And it has worked well for me for a few years now with absolutely NO problems.
 
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