Non-Lethal Alternatives?
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A not about less lethal.
It's not call NON-LETHAL for a reason. Here's why....
Ballistics testing has proven that at the range at which a person will be most likely to be shot in a home defense situation, which is 12 feet or less that 1 oz piece of plastic called the wad will imbed almost 6 INCHES into ballistics gel. ***THE WAD*** #4 Buck shot travels almost 1 FOOT.
Stop and think about the science of this. The less-lethal of ammunition weighs around 3 oz. Give or take, at 12 feet rubber buck shot should penetrate somewhere in the neighborhood of..... 7 or 8 inches. Even if it doesn't kill, it will cause massive injury figuring that each pellet will create a permanent wound track of at least it's size + the size of the wad + the size of the tissue torn apart on impact. Assume 3" diameter sizing down to 4 to 8 seperate 1/4 inch wound tracks.
At that distance, a head shot will blind, a throat shot will kill in less than 3 minutes, a hit to the chest gives a 50/50 chance based off of the location of the now shattered ribs. A shot to the gut will probably permanently cripple.
Legally, by using Less Lethal ammunition you are causing permanent pain and suffering if you don't kill. Now this crippled individual will possibly sue you for pain inflicted.
Physics show that you will more than likely maim, and very possibly kill your target. If they live, you will go to court in this day and age.
--------Personal Opinion--------
As far as I know, no law enforcement person suggests using LL ammunition. In fact, many recommend AGAINST it without training first.
Once that bullet strikes, you have no idea or control if that target will live or die.
There's an old gun safety rule that applies here:
Don't aim if you don't intend to shoot, don't shoot if you don't intend to kill.
If that rule makes you uneasy the don't buy a gun for hunting or HD. Keep your guns for the range only and buy a security system for home defense.
It's not call NON-LETHAL for a reason. Here's why....
Ballistics testing has proven that at the range at which a person will be most likely to be shot in a home defense situation, which is 12 feet or less that 1 oz piece of plastic called the wad will imbed almost 6 INCHES into ballistics gel. ***THE WAD*** #4 Buck shot travels almost 1 FOOT.
Stop and think about the science of this. The less-lethal of ammunition weighs around 3 oz. Give or take, at 12 feet rubber buck shot should penetrate somewhere in the neighborhood of..... 7 or 8 inches. Even if it doesn't kill, it will cause massive injury figuring that each pellet will create a permanent wound track of at least it's size + the size of the wad + the size of the tissue torn apart on impact. Assume 3" diameter sizing down to 4 to 8 seperate 1/4 inch wound tracks.
At that distance, a head shot will blind, a throat shot will kill in less than 3 minutes, a hit to the chest gives a 50/50 chance based off of the location of the now shattered ribs. A shot to the gut will probably permanently cripple.
Legally, by using Less Lethal ammunition you are causing permanent pain and suffering if you don't kill. Now this crippled individual will possibly sue you for pain inflicted.
Physics show that you will more than likely maim, and very possibly kill your target. If they live, you will go to court in this day and age.
--------Personal Opinion--------
As far as I know, no law enforcement person suggests using LL ammunition. In fact, many recommend AGAINST it without training first.
Once that bullet strikes, you have no idea or control if that target will live or die.
There's an old gun safety rule that applies here:
Don't aim if you don't intend to shoot, don't shoot if you don't intend to kill.
If that rule makes you uneasy the don't buy a gun for hunting or HD. Keep your guns for the range only and buy a security system for home defense.
I knew this would come up. This is so bogus....since it's taken out of context. That certainly ISN'T the criteria for buying a hunting or HD shotgun. That kind of "killer" mentality is going to lead to more guns getting banned and/or legislated. Would you be prepared to publically make that statement at your workplace followed by the declaration that you in fact intend to live up to it and that you indeed have a shotgun in your home?Guardian said:
Not me. I would rather tell my co-workers "I have a shotgun in my home strictly for self-defense and I am prepare to use it if necessary. If the situation calls for the use of deadly force, than I am prepared mentally, physically, and financially to implement it. But I'd rather not have to if there is a better alternative...."
Such a matter-of-fact "opinion" is simply not real world....there are tons of situations and circumstances where the HD weapon can be brought into action that doesn't require the death of another person or even anything close to it.
Now before anybody chimes in with the "you can aim to wound" argument, guess what? We've heard it...well believe it....I agree with it...but again, that's not what we are talking about here. Stay on topic. If somebody gave you 10 less-than-lethal 12 ga shotgun shells, do you throw them in the trash because you will never have use for them or do you put them in your drawer because one day you may be able to use them? Or like half of us here, do you throw them away because they won't kill somebody so you're not interested.....
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I don't want to kill anyone under any circumstances. However, in a home defense situation, I would be totally isolated with no help available.
I submit that you will not have the time in a home defense situation to try a less lethal shot. It will happen so fast that you will be lucky to get off one shot in the first place.
Please understand that I am not attacking you by any means. You wanted to know about less lethal applications for a shotgun. I gave you my informed opinion of them for home defense and tried to show you why I didn't think they are a good option for home defense. I'm a certified police firearms instructor with an added shotgun specialization. I am also the grenadier for my department's riot squad meaning I am the guy that handles all of the less lethal muititions; so, I'm not just making this stuff up. From what I have read of several of the other guys in this thread previously, they seem to have a good knowledge of the subject as well.
Nobody was attacking you. We just were trying to be helpful. You asked the question and didn't like the answer.
I submit that you will not have the time in a home defense situation to try a less lethal shot. It will happen so fast that you will be lucky to get off one shot in the first place.
Please understand that I am not attacking you by any means. You wanted to know about less lethal applications for a shotgun. I gave you my informed opinion of them for home defense and tried to show you why I didn't think they are a good option for home defense. I'm a certified police firearms instructor with an added shotgun specialization. I am also the grenadier for my department's riot squad meaning I am the guy that handles all of the less lethal muititions; so, I'm not just making this stuff up. From what I have read of several of the other guys in this thread previously, they seem to have a good knowledge of the subject as well.
Nobody was attacking you. We just were trying to be helpful. You asked the question and didn't like the answer.
I respectfully disagree on the one part. I have already been in a couple of situations where I had time to stop, listen, grab my weapon, listen some more, investigate, and then confront...took about 2 minutes in total. You can argue that it should or shouldn't have happened that way....but it did.combat effective said:
I don't feel like I am being attacked, I just am just disturbed that everyone always wants to blow somebody's head off. You probably don't WANT to but there are a bunch of people that DO.
Kensteele,
First of all, I am want to greet you as a neighbor since I live in Lenexa KS. I tend to agree with the others that I would prefer a more lethal round in a HD situation. Someone intruding into my home obviously has no concern for myself, my family, or our welfare. Why should I be concerned about theirs? I was attacked in my home by an intruder in November. I did not have any guns in the house at the time. He was armed with a hunting knife and I managed to find a small pocket knife before intercepting him. I was lucky and managed to stab him in the shoulder and kick him out of my house without any injuries. The overall odds were not in my favor though. Anyone coming into my home armed with any weapon is going to face the maximum penalty for their actions. I hope that the sound of a round being shucked into my gun would be enough to send them on their way. If not, then they had better identify themselves as a friend or be prepared to be shot.
A drugged up intruder may not even feel the pain from a non-lethal round. In that situation I want to make sure I am able to drop them. I am not going to risk any danger to my wife or myself in an attempt to save the life of someone who has invaded my personal space and my life.
JMO,
Andrew
First of all, I am want to greet you as a neighbor since I live in Lenexa KS. I tend to agree with the others that I would prefer a more lethal round in a HD situation. Someone intruding into my home obviously has no concern for myself, my family, or our welfare. Why should I be concerned about theirs? I was attacked in my home by an intruder in November. I did not have any guns in the house at the time. He was armed with a hunting knife and I managed to find a small pocket knife before intercepting him. I was lucky and managed to stab him in the shoulder and kick him out of my house without any injuries. The overall odds were not in my favor though. Anyone coming into my home armed with any weapon is going to face the maximum penalty for their actions. I hope that the sound of a round being shucked into my gun would be enough to send them on their way. If not, then they had better identify themselves as a friend or be prepared to be shot.
A drugged up intruder may not even feel the pain from a non-lethal round. In that situation I want to make sure I am able to drop them. I am not going to risk any danger to my wife or myself in an attempt to save the life of someone who has invaded my personal space and my life.
JMO,
Andrew
a couple of good points here, most theives wont risk their lives for a little cash, and will probably run away if the home owner appears with any type of firearm.asmith5 said:
also, i support using non-lethal rounds, but i never considered that the criminal may be drugged up. i dont think rubber buckshot will stop someone on pcp
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I don't think that it'll stop anyone determined to gain entry to your home. I've actually been hit with the stingerballs, and it wouldn't stop me.
Why don't you find some reding material from the manufacturers to see just how the products are intended to be used. That way, you won't be stuck getting the info that I am trying to give you from some faceless guy on a gun forum. I think that you'll find that what most of the folks here are telling you is correct.
You should also do some reading on deadly force encounters. You'll find that the first shot is the most important because you just might not get a second shot.
Why don't you find some reding material from the manufacturers to see just how the products are intended to be used. That way, you won't be stuck getting the info that I am trying to give you from some faceless guy on a gun forum. I think that you'll find that what most of the folks here are telling you is correct.
You should also do some reading on deadly force encounters. You'll find that the first shot is the most important because you just might not get a second shot.
Hi Andrew, nice to hear from you. I agree with you, an intruder with a buck knife deserves to be confronted with a shotgun with buckshot, not some non-lethal alternative. If the intruder is drugged, you would be foolish to take him on with rubber bullets and bean bag rounds. In those cases, you need the slugs and the buckshot.asmith5 said:
But is that the only use case for the shotgun in the role of home defense weapon? Confonting armed, drugged crazed intruders who are there not to steal your jewels but are there to kill your family?
Hey, I thought Lexena was a pretty good city, what happened?
If you had had your shotgun, would you have shot to kill him? Looking back, are you glad you didn't have to kill him? Sorry if the questions are insensitive your such a horrible situation in your past.....Absolutely not you don't confront the hardened criminal with non-lethal rounds, I agree. I hope people don't misunderstand, in some case, you need the lethal force.chips said:
But I am POSITIVE there are situations where you can either stay in case holding your shotgun and do nothing and everything will be fine, or you can load your shotgun with non-lethal rounds and voluntarily enter into the semi-controlled situation, as I did once upon a time. Arguable right or wrong for you to do the latter, but it happens.
Of course you don't use non-lethal rounds to prevent forcible entry into your home. I guess I probably do need to do more research on non-lethal alternative. My idea of a non-lethal rounds would be ammo that is designed to stop, injure, or interrupt the progress of another person regardless of what they are wearing, what substance they are on, or who they are or what they are doing.combat effective said:
The whole point of this thread I thought was to discuss non-lethal alternatives and their potential applications, not whether non-lethal rounds are effective or not. I assume they are. Obviously I am not arguing that one should use stingballs to stop a man from breaking down your front door. Not on here, I wouldn't argue that, no way.
In a deadly force encounter, the first shot is important. I have never had a deadly force encounter. I have had plenty of non-deadly force encounters (right or wrong). And I need better non-deadly force alternatives.
Non-lethal ammo has no place in deadly force encounters. Have I not made that clear? I'm just looking to thrash out the practical applications for non-lethal ammo and I was a little disappointed that many have declared there is little to no use for that type of ammo. :?
Combat effective hit the nail onthe head. Bean bag and other such such rounds are not NON LETHAL, they are LESS LETHAL. Meaning there is less of a chance that the person being shot will be killed. With this in mind, the rules of engagement are the same. If there is a reasonable chance that the person may be killed or seriously injured you are still held to the same level of justifaction. Obviously if you are already there, why would you choose a less lethal option? Less lethal rounds are primarily used when confronting sucidal subjects. It gives us a tool that will incapacitate them and allow them to be safely taken into custody
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Please show me an example of the non lethal ammo that you keep mentioning.
I don't know of any manufacturer that makes non lethal shotgun ammo. The correct term is less lethal.
I don't know of any manufacturer that makes non lethal shotgun ammo. The correct term is less lethal.
Yes, I misused the term. Another great point about being LESS lethal. But it doesn't address the issue. Let's say a convenience store clerk has been robbed by teenagers three times in the last 6 months, and now he is fed up. So he reluctantly decides to arm himself. He'd rather not blow the brains out of the next kid that strong-arms the register but he's forced to do something. A baseball bat is not good, knives and picks won't work, mace is no good either...his relatives insist he gets a 357 magnum with hollow points.Stu said:
I believe that "less lethal" ammo has a future place in society. Right now it is mostly a law enforcement tool and civilians are wary because there is no precedent, there's no trust in it. But civilians like me are looking for a non-lethal alternative to home defense and other everyday scenarios and as soon as the market demands enough, the solution(s) will arrive. There was a time when survellience cameras and body armour and other "police" tools were civilian taboo...but they now have a place. So will the less-than-lethal ammo.
I really really really don't want to have to shoot somebody with the 12ga slug that I now have loaded in my Mossberg...right now as I type. I've seen it hit, and it's a mess, a horrible mess. I don't have any control over when bad situations happens but when they do happen, I want the best solution I can obtain. Right now, it slugs and buckshot. Hopefully one day, it's something else "less lethal" to the shooter.
I for one, don't believe that I would be held to the same deadly-force level of justification if I implement less-lethal ammo in certain other situations. If I were to use less-lethal ammo to gain control over a situation, thereby both preventing further escalation which could lead to further bad things AND apprehending the suspect, my chances of a lawsuit are greatly diminished, in my eyes. IOW, there is no wrongful death lawsuit which most of you run the risk of facing....right or wrong, justified or not, when you kill. Call me a unrealistic or a dreamer, but that's what I'm believing so far.
I did a little bit of research on less-lethal alternatives and while it appears to be mostly limited to law enforcement applications, I can't find anything decent (reliable); hence the "less-lethal ammo" is a waste of good money attitudes.
I used to live in an apartment building years ago and my car was parked in the underground public parking. I had a silent alarm that went off one night and I grabbed by 380 auto and went to investigate. I surprise the car thief who had already broken into my car and was rummaging thru my things. The closest I got to him was about 30 yards. When I yelled "hey" he turned, saw me, exiting my car and proceeded to run. I had a chance to shoot him with the glaser safety slugs I had loaded but I never raised my handgun, instead I watched him disappear down the way and I went and called the police. Thinking back I realized that I didn't take steps to really confront him because I didn't want to shoot him especially since I wasn't on my own property and defending personal property is not justified in my state. I only had the pistol in case I found myself in a jam. Anyway, if I had a good solid less lethal handgun round that I could trust, I probably would have approached him from the escape route to block his path rather than sneak up around the side and yell to just simply scare him away. Maybe. Who knows, I was just a kid.
You can only use force if your life is in danger. Otherwise your weapon of choice is the phone. If you would have shot the guy messing with your car then you would have went to prison.
Andrew was extremely lucky to survive his encounter with the knife wielding burglar. Even a small blade can have your intestines out.
If someone were to break into my one story home I would grab the 870 and rack the slide and then wait for developments. The person moving is at an extreme disadvantage.
The two Scotties barking at 105db could probably not be heard over the pounding of my heart :shock:
Andrew was extremely lucky to survive his encounter with the knife wielding burglar. Even a small blade can have your intestines out.
If someone were to break into my one story home I would grab the 870 and rack the slide and then wait for developments. The person moving is at an extreme disadvantage.
The two Scotties barking at 105db could probably not be heard over the pounding of my heart :shock:
I know that. You don't shoot car theives. You don't shoot a car thief attempting to flee the scene either. But you do protect yourself if you are attacked by a "car thief" holding a crowbar or a knife. As fast as he ran away, I'm pretty sure he was high.bruised said:
What am I supposed to do, go downstairs and investigate my car being broken into with a telephone and allow myself to be taken out by an idiot car thief?
I was probably in my early twenties. That's the way young people think. Grab a gun, go see. It's the real world. And in the real world, if that kid who was probably looking to get money for drugs came at me and tried to attack me, I would have felt my life was in danger and would have had no choice but to shoot him. A .380 probably wouldn't have killed him. Like everyone keeps saying, why would you give the burglar the chance to kill YOU, right or wrong?
Looking back if I had some less than lethal ammo in my .380, I probably would have shot at him running away knowing that it wouldn't have killed him. Right or wrong, that's what I would have done in hindsight. The thought makes me shudder even today because if I had shot and wounded him, I'd been in trouble....not murder trouble, but weapons charges, maybe an assault, etc. Nothing a young person can get over the first time. Thank God it didn't happen.
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Hope it works out for you, but please take what everyone has told you to heart. I'm also going to tell you that the deadly force standards are EXACTLY the same regardless of what ammo you had loaded in the gun.
Since you obviously are bent on this path, I'll drop out of this thread now as it appears that your mind is made up and you are now trying to justify it to yourself.
I sure hope that I don't turn on the news one night to see a story about a feller that was killed after firing a less lethal round at home intruders. I hope they leave out the details of what happens to your wife and children.
Later.
Since you obviously are bent on this path, I'll drop out of this thread now as it appears that your mind is made up and you are now trying to justify it to yourself.
I sure hope that I don't turn on the news one night to see a story about a feller that was killed after firing a less lethal round at home intruders. I hope they leave out the details of what happens to your wife and children.
Later.
Here is a good site that discusses "less than lethal ammuninition".
http://www.ozarkmtns.com/less-lethal/nets.htm
Here is a place on the web that sells "less than lethal ammunition".
http://www.ammoman.com
Just click on 12GA at the top. They sell a Combo Pack that includes six different kinds of "less than lethal ammunition", so you can try out the different kinds.
From what I have read, on the first site and on other sites on the web, is that courts WILL consider the use of "less than lethal ammunition" in a defense situation and it WILL BE in your favor. A quote from the first site:
"A consideration by most courts when determining the legitimacy of a self-defense shooting is the escalation force. When a less lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without intent of causing lethal injury. The desired effect should be incapacitation of the intended subject to a point which allows the defender to take control of the situation, and make a decision on what follow up actions are required. As with any ammunition, the user should immediately assess the situation and be prepared to take necessary follow up actions should the desired result not be achieved."
It is true that most HD situations will only allow you to fire one shot (these discussions, invariably, do not include the use of "less than lethal ammunition") but in the case where your first shot is "less than lethal", you will undoubtedly have time to fire a second one, which should be lethal. I have seen "less than lethal ammunition" used, in video's and in person, and invariably the person who is hit, goes down. Even if the intruder turns out to be totally drugged up or as "tough as nails", at the very least it will stun the intruder long enough for you to get off a lethal round.
http://www.ozarkmtns.com/less-lethal/nets.htm
Here is a place on the web that sells "less than lethal ammunition".
http://www.ammoman.com
Just click on 12GA at the top. They sell a Combo Pack that includes six different kinds of "less than lethal ammunition", so you can try out the different kinds.
From what I have read, on the first site and on other sites on the web, is that courts WILL consider the use of "less than lethal ammunition" in a defense situation and it WILL BE in your favor. A quote from the first site:
"A consideration by most courts when determining the legitimacy of a self-defense shooting is the escalation force. When a less lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without intent of causing lethal injury. The desired effect should be incapacitation of the intended subject to a point which allows the defender to take control of the situation, and make a decision on what follow up actions are required. As with any ammunition, the user should immediately assess the situation and be prepared to take necessary follow up actions should the desired result not be achieved."
It is true that most HD situations will only allow you to fire one shot (these discussions, invariably, do not include the use of "less than lethal ammunition") but in the case where your first shot is "less than lethal", you will undoubtedly have time to fire a second one, which should be lethal. I have seen "less than lethal ammunition" used, in video's and in person, and invariably the person who is hit, goes down. Even if the intruder turns out to be totally drugged up or as "tough as nails", at the very least it will stun the intruder long enough for you to get off a lethal round.
Thank you I appreciate it. I not bent, I'm just trying to learn. I don't have any wife and kids. Maybe that's why I have thes alternative(s) open to me whereas someone with a home full of dependents may not. I'll check out the websites above thanks runamok but this discussion is probably baked.combat effective said:
I'm older now, I won't be on the news for some silly incident. I don't use my weapons unless the cause is real. Just in case it was misunderstood, I'm not looking for less-lethal ammo so that I can carry my shotgun into non-deadly-force incidents. I'm looking for less-lethal-ammo so that when I do take my shotgun into "certain" deadly-force incidents, I don't end up making a huge mess of things.
I don't think some really realize, if you kill all but the hardest career criminal, you're going to have to pay for it in the long run, mentally or spiritually...whatever applies.
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