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I was curious if non-lethal alternatives are on the public market? I've seen how inaccurate the bean-bags are and was more interested in rubber shot shells. I've seen topics talking about everthing from light loads to 00 Buck, but haven't seen anything about rubber shot. If it ever comes down to just putting someone down, -I don't think I would want to ruin my carpet.

DefensiveOperationsTrainingSpeciali
Unregistered User
(4/27/03 1:28:45 pm)
12.219.66.81
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Your haveing to defend your life or your familys life and your worried about your carpet???

Mattd
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(4/27/03 2:20:15 pm)
68.13.132.32
| Edit | Del less lethal
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Its less than lethal , still lethal. I think it would be best if a less than lethal then the rest whatever you want.

They put tails on bean bans now so they fly straighter.

mattd
Unregistered User
(4/27/03 2:21:41 pm)
68.13.132.32
| Edit | Del opps
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I mean the first shot less than lethal then the rest buck shot or whatever you like.

James
Unregistered User
(4/27/03 8:56:25 pm)
63.226.222.44
| Edit | Del explain....
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What would be a circumstance that you'd choose to use a bean bag or rubber shot for self defense?

SPRITE
Unregistered User
(4/27/03 11:48:40 pm)
207.40.91.220
| Edit | Del alternative
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I can think of only one thing that I use as a non leathal alternative,my dogs, 2labs&2 rottwielers.If that ain't enough to convince some dumb *** that is in my house and should not be there to leave,then the double ought buck fling out the end of my mossy 500 barrel will.The only other thing I can think of is a good 'ol ball bat

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 215
(4/28/03 12:15:50 am)
65.31.22.129
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I'm not 100% sure, but I do believe that Police officers have to receive training before they can use less lethal rounds, so that they can do so with as little risk to an offender as possible.

I live near Columbus, Ohio. About two years back, a rubber pellet took a wild bounce after being shot from an officer's gun, and struck a 19 year old(I think) girl in the eye, blinding her.

Even if it doesn't hit an eye, a wild bounce with rubber buckshot will crush a windpipe, or possibly stop a heart by a hard hit to the ribs (though less likely).

Even then, if you do not kill the intruder, he/she could bring YOU up on charges.

It's not worth the risk. Rubber shot is designed to bounce of any hard surface, you could also hit a solid piece of wood, sending the shot back at you, or a member of your family.

If you do decide to invest in rubber shot, make sure you have someone who has had training in how to properly and safely use this ammunition show you how to use it. But I do not recommend any Less Lethal round for Home defense.
"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent
 

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The issue of using non-lethal ammunition, is that if you do not kill your assailant, he will almost definitely turn around and sue you for bodily harm and emotional distress. This has happened where an assailant has been non-mortally wounded (by sheer circumstance) and sued the victim for shooting him. If he is dead and you have operated within the limits of the law, he cannot sue you, but his family can. The NRA has cautioned that the average price for defending yourself legally from a dead assailants next of kin will average $70,000. But it beats getting dirt shoveled in your face or standing over you wife or wife or children's grave while they shovel dirt in their face.
 
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hey, ill tell you where you can get some non lethal buckshot, gun shows, gunshows, gun shows, they usually come in packs of 5, theyre called like stingers, its like some plastic buckshot, or, you can move up 1 level and get some military shot,but they all come in packs of 5, and they are like 5 bucks, ya, 1 shot, 1 buck, but they are light recoiling loads, and try your army surplus store
 

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When debating on using LESS LETHAL (there is no such thing as Non-Lethal) try to remember this.

1. The person breaking into your house and possibly attempting to cause your family harm will not be using Less Lethal Ammunition. Their intent is to harm or kill (assuming that proper warnings have been issued)

2. You can only draw and fire the weapon if the situation will be considered Acceptable Use of DEADLY Force. By law you may be tried for:
Murder
Assault with a Deadly Weapon
Attempted Murder
if the the use of deadly force is not warranted.

Generally, assume that you WILL be arrested if you POINT a firearm at another human.

Save the Less Lethal Ammo for Police and Military. They have the "Sliding Scale" of threat response. They deal with riots, and baracaded suspects and other situations in which the opponennt is nnot trying to kill them... they use Less Lethal Ammunition as a way to neutralize a suspect without killing them.

As Civilians defending our homes we are still told to:
1. Call the Police
2. Attempt to Escape the Building.
--If unable to remove your ENTIRE family from harms way--
3. Inform the Intruder that you, have called the Police, are ARMED, and that you want them to leave.
4. Stay where you are, if the intruder comes to you; you are GENERALLY authorized to shoot (and possibly kill) them.

Those steps provide proof that you had no other option. You called 9-1-1, you were unable to escape, you gave them an option to leave, and let them know that by staying they might die. Finally you tried to hide from them until the police arrived.

Defending human life is important, no doubt about it. However, in a legit Home Defense Scenario they have already been given them 2-3 chances to leave, each time having chose to test your resolve to accually pull the trigger. They have more than warranted the use of deadly force, and without proper training on how to correctly use the Less Lethal ammunition you very well may still kill them. You might as well load with regular ammunition and pray that you never have to use it.
 
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Sorry bout the late reply- I'm not a regular & usually read the hunting posts.

Guardian is exactly right on all counts. Good advice there.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned about less lethal munitions is that when the police employ them, we have a cover officer with full power ammo close at hand in case the less lethal doesn't have the desired results (I've seen it happen). If you don't have that option available to you, don't even consider less lethal for personal defense.
 
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Guardian,
Thanks for that great info, however I have one question. You mentioned to stay where you are and wait to see if the intruder comes to you. In my house, my bedroom is seperated from the children's by the living area, which means that an intruder in the living area can get to my kids without having to face me first. In this situation, I don't want to wait for him to make a decision.

I realize that this is a function of bad house design. I think that the first thing one should do is build you house the right way, prefebly with bedrooms upstairs and one staircase that can be isolated with a steel gate (as we do in South Africa, a crime ridden country) This way you can look down over the bannisters to the possible intruder, point your blinding light at him/them first and hopefully persuade him/them to leave.

I realize that you have to consider fire escape alternatives with the one staircase design, but you would have that in most houses that I have seen.
 

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I think Mr Guardian gives very good advise. If anyone is interested in home defense at all, they should print his post out and read it every time he/she takes whatever tool they use for home defense out to practice--which should be at least every 2 months or so.

I've already printed my copy--and WILL review it every time I practice, which is more than every 3 months!
 

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That's kinda touchy, but I think that you can move to get your children, though I would still announce to any intruder that you have called the police, that you are armed and plan on moving towards the rest of your family, and that it would be a good idea to leave, because you are willing to use lethal force if needed.

I would strongly recommend saying something to the effect of:
"I recommend that you leave because I am willing to use lethal force if it is deemed necessary."
as opposed to:
"Get out of my F***ing house or I'll F***ing kill you."

Two reasons for this. One, the second one will be determined as a threat, making you the aggressor. The first is much more of an informative statment, and usually will carry more weight with an attacker than the threat.
Humans are animals, even if we are "civilized." We still have basic pack hunter instincts. There are alpha males and females. If you doubt it, go to any school. A direct threat like that second phrase will spark a fight for dominance.
The intruder will more than likely decide that he is the alpha male and challange you for dominance.
Calmly explaining to him the consequenses of his actions, "If you stay, you will probably cause me to have no choice but to harm/kill you." This either:
A. Sidesteps the whole pack instinct.
B. Says I am the Alpha, don't challange me.

It doesn't really matter if it is A or B, in either way the calm, reserved, informative statement will have a better chance of de-escalating a deadly scenario than the "John McLean" approach.
 
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Maybe I am out of bounds here, but I think we are overlooking one good aspect of a shotgun for home defense. Noise, and size, and less penetration than a handgun.

Few criminals would stick around after hearing the gun rack, but the sound of a shot (yes you risk traveling through walls depending on shot size) should encourage the criminal to hurry on out of your house.

Better to fix a hole in a door or ceiling (if you have single story house) than having a corpse on the floor or engange in a gun fight.
 

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While you all have very good points... I think you all missed something here.

first off... any situation in your home, notwithstanding differing state laws regarding use of deadly force, any weapon you employ could put you into jeopardy with the law, depending on your situation... be it a kitchen knife, a rock... a bat... or a dog.

I suggest you contact your local law enforcement officials, or DA... and ask what your rights & responsibilities are in your jurisdiction. Most states DO NOT require you to flee your home before using deadly force... as most states do recognize "home is castle" doctrines.

Regardless.... your main problem in a JUSTIFIABLE defensive situation is not the DA... but the civil lawyer waiting in the emergency room! And using less than lethal shells will be turned into YOU torturing a poor, defenseless "victim". A victim who is still alive, with great pics of bruises to show to the jury.. making you out to be marque de sade!

But... to top this all off... you all missed the fact that this fellow has the best defense of all... Black Labs & Rottweiler dogs! If a criminal makes it past them dude... you better have #00 buck... because that is one determined individual!

Regardless... we all have to make the concious choice to either defend our homes... or not. Regardless of what method you choose... if you do find yourself in a situation, there will be an investigation. I suggest, unless you know the future beforehand, that you prepare for the worst, and use real ammo.... and rely on your dogs & your phone call to 911, to keep you from having to use it.

Good luck.. and Good info Guardian!
 

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Despite any legal implications if someone breaks into my house and has a weapon that I believe they will use on me or my family i'll shoot and work out the rest once the intruder is stopped. As for less-lethal ammunition I belive that we should leave that to the army and police and stick with the proven 00 buckshot method.
 

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I agree with most of what Guardian says, but I'll have to disagree with the language he suggests using to an intruder:
"I recommend that you leave because I am willing to use lethal force if it is deemed necessary." :lol: :lol:

Get real, man! This is a street thug and more than likely a drug addict. He understands and responds to language of the street, not language that some milktoast Mr Nice Guy type would use. He might think you are a wimp and therefore unwilling to use your gun if you talked to him like that.

I'm going to talk to him in language that he understands VERY WELL, such as "Get on the F***ing floor you A**hole before I blow your F***ing head off!" When I say this, he will do one of two things. If he drops his weapon and gets down on the floor, then my statement accomplished its purpose. If he DOESN'T comply immediately, then I will do exactly what I told him I would do. When I get to court later, since he won't be there, I can tell the jury whatever I want to tell them that I said, and there will be no one there to say any differently.
 

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The specific wording was more of an example than what should be said verbatum. I should have clarified.

You are right, make sure they understand, but be very careful that you are explaining a choice and not threatening to kill them. That's the major point.

"If you don't lay down on the ground, I will be forced to shoot."
"Stop where you are or I'll shoot."

You are giving the person a choice.
If you DO lay down, I won't be forced to shoot. They have to decide if they want to lay down or be put down.

If you stop I will not shoot. Once again. they have the option.

The clear definition between cause and effect puts the ball in their court. They know that they will die if they don't cooperate, but you didn't threaten them, really.

You gave them an option.

Once it is worded in a way where you are threatening them, lawyers will have a field day.
Get on the ground or I'll kill you. That could be used to show intent. You had decided beforehand that you had every thought of killing them.
You can guess where that will most likely go.

Really how you word it is your choice, just make sure you are giving them a clear option in a way they will understand.

That's really where I was headed. :D
 

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Guardian said:
"Once it is worded in a way where you are threatening them, lawyers will have a field day."

If I should happen to kill them, just WHO is going to be in court to testify to exactly what I said other than ME?
 

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CartridgeGuy said:
If he is dead and you have operated within the limits of the law, he cannot sue you, but his family can. The NRA has cautioned that the average price for defending yourself legally from a dead assailants next of kin will average $70,000.
That's why I have a silencer for my beretta and a pre-dug hole in my back yard. And if his family sues, I can always dig more holes... j/k I live in a studio and don't have a back yard.
 

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Just curious if anyone here has any non-anecdotal evidence of anyone going to prison for having an intruder fail to comply with their "request to leave". I live near ground-zero for ambulance chasing lawyers (yep, that'd be our nation's capital) but I find it hard to believe that anyone who enters a house with criminal intent could later be deemed a victim. I don't mean by some sadly misguided jury in a civil case because we've all seen how that scenario can go beyond ALL possible reason. I'm talking about legally. As several others have stated previously, a money vs. lives of loved ones computation isn't going to mean a d*mn thing in the morning.

My apologies to any shotgunworld members who may have a J.D. shingle hanging outside their office but attorneys here probably outnumber other vocations 3-to-1 and I'm a little jaded.

In the mean time, I'm taking BlackDragon's advice....J/K !!.
 
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