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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Most people here have at one time or another played a first person shooter. In AA:O, You are put at the vantage point of the person doing the firing, and have to react in a combat situation by engaging only targets that you are allowed to fire at. That means, no friendly forces, no civilians, etc.

If you hit something you are not supposed to, you are penalized. It forces you to identify your targets. The rules that govern this are called the "Rules of Engagement". In dark places like the jungle in Vietnam, a lot of casualties were caused by friendly fire incidents, when guys couldn't properly identify the targets they were shooting at.

I guess the reason for this post is to ask, "How many people here are confident enough in the skills they have in the real world to be able to safely identify their targets before firing on them, so they don't inadvertently kill the neighbor's dog, or something like that?" Do you have the actual skills?

A case in point about reflexive action. I was on a building sweep in 04 investigating an open door in one of the buildings we wre guarding. I called for backup. When the other unit arrived, we went inside to clear the building. I had never been inside the building before. The back area was unsecured, and this was unusual. So, we were dumping a lot of adrenailine.

We opened a door and went through. There, on the wall, was the same type of target that we used in training. Instinctively, my hand, weapon in it, came up and went to bear on the target. I caught myself doing it, and prevented an ND. My partners hand was going for his weapon, which was still holstered, but he had a grip on it. Reflexive action, and the way we trained, and we almost shot a hole in the wall without thinking, becuase we were trained to respond that way.

It turned out ot be someone's concealed permit class target. We finished the sweep and secured the building. Nevertheless, I wouldn't hang any targets up at my house if I were you, especially if you expect the cops to visit.

Back to the FPS scenario. People get pretty good at not shooting anyone in an Army uniform. Or civilians. IF the bad guys dress like they do in AA, they wont be safe in my neighborhood. But if it really hit the fan out there, could you trust your own judgement, and do it right? Do you thinik that games, simulations, etc, help at all? We fight like we train. How should we train right?
 

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I think you did just fine. You reacted instinctually to a "threat" and identified it properly before firing.

As far as FPS goes I think they have some benefit, if only for shtf situations. Most of the servers I end up in have Friendly Fire turned off, meaning I can unload on my point man's head with no damage given. This is not good for target id as you are playing a game where your score is the most important objective. I have played on some CS servers that apply the ff damage to you instead of your teammate which maybe does help, but then again the good guys look similar and the bad guys look like bad guys. In a total anarchical collapse of society where everybody vs. everybody these games may help in that you do learn to engage multiple targets from multiple directions fairly efficiently. When the zombie invasion happens you will likely be glad you "so wisely invested" your time in FPS video games, I know I will! :D
 

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When we have action shoots at the club, they use the picture targets, and there are usually a few no shoots. When they place a questionable target up they usually ask why you chose to shoot or not to shoot. So you at least show that you consciously made the decision to shoot, even if he did have a caulking gun.
 

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With the adrenalin flowing, waiting to identify a target is contrary to our survival instincts, so, IMHO anything that conditions us to think before pulling the trigger is a good thing.

Mental preparation and training are a must to keep control under these circumstances.

There is more to mental prep. than just remembering to identify the target. Here are some other things to think about (and this is just in a HD situation):

the intruder is running, but is he fleeing or seeking a better vantage point or cover from which to shoot at me?

the intruder appears intoxicated, is unarmed, but is approaching me. When do I have to pull the trigger? Is less than deadly force an option?

I know the intruder. Did he get drunk and break in to give me a piece of his mind, or is he here to hurt me?

BG's are not always slobbering, unshaven, and pointing a .357 at you. (sometimes it is just a caulking gun) Just some things to think about.

BTW: what is the best caulk in a SD situation?

RJM
 

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You know I really like DAP products for all around use but I'm not sure it is a reliable stopper. I'm thinking a more one task load may be a better choice, liquid nails has some good sticking power. Either way I prefer a skeletonized gun, lighter weight and quick reload times.

Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/SI300-Driples...ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1196833766&sr=1-7

On topic, some more great things to think about.
 

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Scenario-based Force on Force cass will let you know what your instincts actually are.
 

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Jamas: Good one. :wink: I worry about over penetration too: it can make such a mess.

FMD: Good idea. I'm afraid too many people just stick a gun in the closet as if that is a safe and responsible way of protecting themselves. One of the reasons for reading this forum is that folks here seem to think a little more about what they are doing.

RJM
 

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Story to share.

A few years back, when I was still working as a Sheriff's Deputy, my partol area was a large ski resort. During the summer monthes the place was like a ghost town. You could count eh number of people on the mountain on one hand and still have fingers left.

Now, the resort had a large sports complex that included a weight room, olympic size pool, and indoor tennis courts. There had been an issue with folks pushing open the back door to the tennis courts and gaining access to the facility. Their solution was to drive a golf cart up against the door from the inside to keep people from pushing it open.

As part of our patrols, we were expected to go into the sports center and check the door from the inside. Now the tennis courts were in a huge building like a high school gym with big sodium lights that took forever to come to life. I started across this area and made it about halfway across when my flashlight dies. It is dark. Like, you can't see your hand in front of your face dark. I managed to get over and check the door by stopping, letting my light rest, walking until it stopped again, ect.

I check the door and make to back to the door that leads out of the courts with my heart racing because I was sure that someone or something was going to grab me in the dark.

The hallway that lead to the rest of the has a slight incline. As I was walking up the ramp, I ssaw a person standing at the top of it! :eek: I issue a verbal and start to draw my weapon when I realize that he is dressed like me....and looks a lot like me....and it was me. It was my reflection in a full length glass door that led to the outside. :oops:

That wasn't the only time I had the crap scared out of me by something silly up on that mountain.
 

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Stretchman;

Great post with compelling questions. :idea:
Don't you wish everyone took their training so seriously?
I have no doubt, if so there would be fewer unfortunate outcomes in real world situations.
Having said that, it appears when reading and studying actual shootout situations. The good guys actually hesitate, perhaps it seems more than they should. It doesn't seem to matter whether it is Law enforcement or civilian, we do hesitate and for the most part just as with you and some of the others who have posted their situation/reactions, the outcome turned out for the bst.
But it does happen where good guys do bad or hesitate too long and they shoot the innocent or get shot as a result of their hesitation or good intentions.
I personally don't know of a fail-safe beyond doing as much training with as much real-life input as possible and the rest is up to the fates.

I am fortunate in having the range and for many years now being able to practice/train with LE and civilians.
In 1994 I bought a FATS simulator and loaded it with all the LE scenarios I could get. I upgraded to the Range 2000 in 1998.
I perform training for LE in 6 states as so many small depts could not afford the sim. I had built "mobile classroom" in a trailer large enough for the unit and what we needed to make actual partitions to use as cover or concealment so we could impress upon trainees the absolute necessity of using either or both ALWAYS and without fail. ALWAYS get something between you and the bad guy.
I then had to hire professional actors and actresses and scripted civilian scenarios as there were at that time no such animals made for civilian training. I believe I was th first to provide this kind of training for civilians and used them in every CCW class we taught. It was remarkable the outcome and popularity of that training. I even had people rent the sim by the hour and would bring large groups in to train on it.

So then I built a shoot house in the unused part of my range about 40' by 50'. I still use it for civilian and lE training and we use it with Glock and Sig, sim guns. I don't know if you have ever been hit with the pellets out of one of these but if so you know how bad it hurts. Bottom line is you work very hard to do what is right in your scenario to NOT be shot.
We do not play, we are very serious about the training we do in clearing rooms, halls, doors and windows etc using men and women to work out each specific scenario.
We even have some of the swat units come down to spend time in the house.
It is fun but taken very seriously. And I am fortunate to be able to spend time sharing with them and the civilians who come in to train. I am always learning and it made your post and comments especially meaningful.
Some of the materials we have in the house are made to make what you described, happen to trainees during day or night training sessions and it is not unusual for the wrong person to get shot.
The difference is in training after a mistake, even though you feel like sh*% on a stick, everyone goes home. Not so in real life.
So from me to you,
Keep up the good work and train all you possibly can and as often as you have time to do. If practice and solving "what if" scenarios aren't perfect, I don't know what is.

I did not mean for this to be so long but your post and your comments and questions are so very important I just could not resist.

BTW I have seem swat guys actually have to sit down and rest as they began hyperventillating during their scenarios. Must have made it pretty factual.

UF
 

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Holy sh*t Fudd. :shock:

You wouldn't be affiliated with any big names would you?
 

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Reverend

Send a PM if you have a minute.

Always interested in those from my original stomping grounds..

UF
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for the great replies. I am going to look at some additional real world training.
 
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