[Lefty]

I currently own an Ithaca Deerslayer 37 (2 3/4'' smoothbore) which I have had for 18 years (only shotgun). I love my gun... but for the last few years, I have been thinking of making a change. I am interested primarily in getting a fully rifled barrel and scope (preferably cantilever) for deer hunting. I am also contemplating going a different route and getting my first autoloader. The problem is.. I am left hand, left eye dominant. Not that this in itself is a problem... but based on the last few weeks of research.. it is quite evident that the lefties are left high & dry from almost all gun manufacturers out there. The company that deserves the most praise in this area are Benelli who gives us lefties three great choices (but at a very high price tag). Of course Ithaca and Browning pumps work for left or right... but there is no such thing as an bottom ejecting autoloader shotgun.

From what I can tell, these are ALL the 12ga options available to lefties:

Pump:
Ithaca Deerslayer
Ithaca Deerslayer II
Remington 870 Express
Browning BPS (Cantilever Game, Hunter, Micro, Stalker)

Auto:
Remmington 11-87
Benelli Super Black Eagle
Benelli M1 Field
Benelli Montefeltro

Berretta - nope (though you can change the cast and safety of the 391)
Mossberg - nope
Winchester - nope
Weatherby - nope
Savage - don't think so

This leaves out a number of well regarded shotguns such as:
Pump:
Benelli Nova
Remington 870 Wingmaster
Remington 870 Special Purpose
Mossberg 500
Mossberg 835
Winchester 1300

Auto:
Remington 1100
Remington 11-87 Special Purpose
Remington SP-10 Magnum
Beretta 391
Browning Gold
Winchester Super X2
Wetherby SAS

How very sad.

Well, rather than turn this into a rant, I would like to pose a number of questions that I have come up with. I have tried asking various dealers but nobody seems to know the answers. I have also emailed manufacturers (Ithaca & Remington) but they haven't responded yet.

I find your site very useful... and have read a number of old posts that have been very beneficial. I would like to pick your brains for any additional information you might have regarding the plight of the left hander. Thanks in advance for any information you can provide!

- Did I miss any left hand 12ga shotguns that are worth checking out?

- I am trying to see if I can get the Ithaca Fully Rifled Cantilever barrel (S/N 371882185). The reason I don't think I can.. is because my 37 is chambered for 2 3/4'' and the barrel is for 3''. Does this make a difference? Does it affect performance in any way?

- How does the Deerslayer II compare to the original Deerslayer?

- How cheap is the 870 Express vs the Wingmaster? I would rather get the Wingmaster (of the two) but it is not offered. What differences are there between the two?

- Does Remington offer a fully-rifled cantilever barrel for the 11-87 or 870? From the looks of things, they do not. Here is what their site specifies:
11-87
29615* Premier Deer Barrel Fully Rifled Cantilever 12 21" CL Fully Rifled $308
29606* Premier Fully Rifled Deer Barrel w/ Rifle Sights 12 21" RS Fully Rifled $259
29623* Premier Deer Barrel w/ Rifle Sights 12 21"RS Rem Choke¹ $200
29625* Premier Left-Hand Deer Barrel w/ Rifle Sights 12 21" RS Rem Choke¹ $221

870
24611 Express Deer Barrel Fully Rifled w/ Rifle Sights 12 20" RS Fully Rifled $187
24622 Express Deer Barrel w/ Rifle Sights 12 20" RS Imp. Cyl. $126
24547 Wingmaster Left-Hand Deer Barrel w/ Rifle Sights 12 20" RS Rem Choke $219

- why would the 29625 LH be different from the 29623 unless they are NOT interchangeable? If they are not interchangeable, does that mean that the 29615 would not work for a left hand 11-87? Same goes for the 870: why would it list one as left handed unless they were NOT interchangeable??
- Why would the Wingmaster be listed with a Left Hand barrel when only the Express comes in Left Hand?
- No Cantilever avail for the 870

- Is there any after market barrels that would fit my need (ie Hastings)?

- Does Benelli make a fully rifled barrel for their left hand guns?

- Are Rifled sites removable if you want to add a scope?

- Remington states that if you go below 26'' (I believe) you will no longer be using the pressure-compensating gas system (without modification). I have tried to find out what modification is necessary.. but have been unable to find anything. What modifications are required and how much does it cost? What is the drawback to not using the PCGS?

- What is the difference between Light contour and Standard Contour? Is one better than the other?

- Every manufacturer seems to use a different Rate of Twist. What amount of twist is best?

ok, just a little rant:

- When will Remington step up to the plate and make a left hand 870 Wingmaster?

- When will Browning step up to the plate and make a left hand Gold?

- When will Beretta step up to the plate and make a left hand 391?

- When will Benelli take that one last step to make a left hand Nova

- When will Ithaca drop their old traditions and come out with an auto-loader (LH & RH)?

- When will they all step up to the plate and make a fully rifled cantilever barrel for ALL their guns?

Sorry for the long post. I have been lurking here for a while trying to gather all the information I can. These should probably all go in separate threads.. but I thought it would be worse to have a newbie post 20 threads his first time out.

 

[Guest]

get a benelli

 

[jlptexashunter]

I think you've covered it. I was posed with buying a barrel for an 870 or a Browning Gold last year and here is what I ended up with. You may or may not like the solution, but it was less expensive than the barrel and turns out that I REALLY like this gun for Deer and Pigs. It comes with a Hammer Extender that extends both sides (for right or left hands). You only need one shot and if you practice you'd be suprised how fast you can get a second shot off.

http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/index.ph ... bcat=17#36

 

[Guest]

Franchi Alcione(sp??) O/U comes in a lefty version.

Left handed here too---but shoot right handed---guess you could call me ambi----more than right or left handed.

 

[clayshooter25/25]

I think the H&R is a good idea but hows the recoil on that thing.

 

[jlptexashunter]

Recoil depends on what you shoot in the thing.

Remington Premier or Winchester Premium 1900FPS loads are gonna kick like a mule. But turns out they'll kick even worse in a 8lb Ithaca or Remington.

 

[clayshooter25/25]

How much does it weigh?

 

[Dalee100]

Hi,

Hey Lefty, I understand, being a southpaw myself. But I don't think anybody on that list is going to add any lefty versions any time soon. We are a niche market. Not enough of us to justify the added expense of the tooling to make something for us.

That 3" barrel for your DeerSlayer won't fit. The recivers are different sizes. The 3" (or magnum) reciever is longer.

I don't know much about the DeerSlayer 2. But I would think it is as good as the original.

The 870 Express won't match the WingMaster for fit, finish, or wood, but is still as good a functioning gun as the WingMaster.

A lefty barrel is different from a righty because the barrel extention, (the part that fits into the reciever) is on the opposite side. The parts are "mirrored". Hence the need for completely different tooling to make them. So you would need a left-hand barrel.

I'm personally unaware of any aftermarket barrels made as you want. Again, there just aren't enough of us to warrent it. Hopefully, someone else might know of one.

A light contour vs. Standard, neither is better until you figure out how many miles you intend to carry it in a day. And again, barrels won't be interchangable. For slugs I would stick with the standard. It should be a bit heavier for recoil absorbtion and a little more ridged for accuracy with slugs.

What rate of twist? Well that depends. What ammo will you want to use? Rule of thumb is the longer the projectile the faster the twist needed. So for the faster twist, those guns are going to probably work better with sabots vs. more tradtional designs.

jlptexashunter has an excellent suggestion. That H&R is a very good deer gun! If I still deer hunted with a shotgun (I'm strictly muzzleloader now) that would be the gun for me! I've looked a several and shot one. Well made, inexpensive, and a tack driver to boot! I think you'd have to buy a Tar-Hunt bolt action to surpass the accuracy of that H&R.

Dale

 

[Lefty]

get a benelli

Can you elaborate? Which Benelli? and why? I know they are great guns, but are they that much better for an extra grand? Do you use it with sabot slugs (rifled barrel, smoothbore, rifled choke)? Have you compared them against all the others.. or are you saying this because you have a Benelli and love it?

Also- I am unable to find any information on extra barrels for the Benelli. My guess is.. they do not make any rifled barrels (cantilever or rifle sight) and you have to use a choke. Therefore, there is no fully rifled barrel for a Benelli. Is this true? Do you have any information on this?

 

[Lefty]

http://www.hr1871.com/firearms/index.php?cat=3&subcat=17#36

I came across this site during my search.. and thought it was intersting. I had never heard of it.... and I am glad there is something else out there. I am however, pretty much set on either a pump or autoloader. It is something to consider down the road if I become a gun 'accumulator' (as defined in a different thread)... but for now, I am not ready for a single shot.

 

[Lefty]

Franchi Alcione(sp??) O/U comes in a lefty version.

Left handed here too---but shoot right handed---guess you could call me ambi----more than right or left handed.

Something to consider in the future.. but not just yet. Thanks for the tip though...

As for me, I bat and golf right handed... but everything else is southpaw.

 

[Lefty]

Dale - Thanks for touching on many of my questions! I can't say that the answers make me a happy man... but thanks for the info.

Hey Lefty, I understand, being a southpaw myself. But I don't think anybody on that list is going to add any lefty versions any time soon. We are a niche market. Not enough of us to justify the added expense of the tooling to make something for us.

I agree that we are a niche market.. but I think almost all categories (especially related to hunting/guns/etc) cater to a niche category. Most of these companies rely on designs made 50-100 years ago. There are probably only a handful of parts that need to be 'reversed' to accomodate a left hand model... which with computers could be done with the touch of a button. I don't think it would be that much additional effort to change a die one or twice a year for a lefty production run. I agree that it would not be the most profitable niche.. but I think there are more lefties out there than they give us credit for.

That 3" barrel for your DeerSlayer won't fit. The recivers are different sizes. The 3" (or magnum) reciever is longer.

I could see how width (or diameter) would fit into the equation.. but how does length? I would think length would be irrelevant as a longer barrel would just extend further from the receiver?

I don't know much about the DeerSlayer 2. But I would think it is as good as the original.

Here are the specs from their website:
http://www.ithacagun.com/products/catal ... yer2.shtml
http://www.ithacagun.com/products/catal ... ayer.shtml

The differences I notice are (II vs I):
- fixed, free-floating rifled barrel (1" in 34 twist) vs Interchangeable, slug, vent rib, turkey
- non-engraved vs engraved
- Length of Pull: 14 1/8" vs 14''
- Drop at Comb: 1 3/8" by 1 3/8" vs 1 1/2"
- Drop at Heel: 2 1/8" vs 2 1/4"
- Stock Type: Walnut Monte Carlo vs Walnut
- Total Weight: not a valid comparison

The 870 Express won't match the WingMaster for fit, finish, or wood, but is still as good a functioning gun as the WingMaster.

Yes, the wood and finish lack the higher quality of the Wingmaster. I wonder if these are interchangable and can be purchased separately. Are they contoured differently for a right vs left hander? What is the difference in fit? Are the dimensions different?

A lefty barrel is different from a righty because the barrel extention, (the part that fits into the reciever) is on the opposite side. The parts are "mirrored". Hence the need for completely different tooling to make them. So you would need a left-hand barrel.

I still don't understand why? Why can't a barrel be put on the same way for either gun? What piece gets in the way causing it to have to go on one way or the other? If they put their notch on both sides of the barrel.. this seems that it would solve the problem. Is this the piece that attaches to the top of the magazine cap that is causing the problem? If anybody has pictures of the two barrels side by side.. I would love to see them. Such a simple design and they couldn't make it interchangable.

I'm personally unaware of any aftermarket barrels made as you want. Again, there just aren't enough of us to warrent it. Hopefully, someone else might know of one.

This amazes me. I would think Hastings would jump at the chance. Zero competition. They would own the market! If only I won the lottery...

A light contour vs. Standard, neither is better until you figure out how many miles you intend to carry it in a day. And again, barrels won't be interchangable. For slugs I would stick with the standard. It should be a bit heavier for recoil absorbtion and a little more ridged for accuracy with slugs.

So is a light contour have thinner walls (therefore lighter) than the standard countour? Are they made that way for a particular purpose (for light loads) or just to save money by not using as much raw material?

What rate of twist? Well that depends. What ammo will you want to use? Rule of thumb is the longer the projectile the faster the twist needed. So for the faster twist, those guns are going to probably work better with sabots vs. more tradtional designs.

It would be interesting to see an article that compares the rate of twist and charts the performance gain or loss. Your point on longer projectiles makes a logical point.. but I'm sure there is a breakpoint somewhere where performance is at its highest point after which it will start to decrease. I am sure each company did their own R&D comparisons when coming out with their rifled barrel. It is interesting that they all came out with different numbers. Perhaps the first one was able to patent a particular ROT and others had to make it slightly different in order to avoid lawsuits...?

jlptexashunter has an excellent suggestion. That H&R is a very good deer gun! If I still deer hunted with a shotgun (I'm strictly muzzleloader now) that would be the gun for me! I've looked a several and shot one. Well made, inexpensive, and a tack driver to boot! I think you'd have to buy a Tar-Hunt bolt action to surpass the accuracy of that H&R.

This doesn't really fit into my criteria of a pump or autoloader.. but it is something that I would certainly like to try. I haven't noticed them in any of my local shops.. but I will keep an eye out in the future.

 

[Guest]

Lefty here also ...

Let me just say that the Ithaca Guns built now are of excellent quality. I have a English Straight Stock Field gun in 16 gauge and it is fantastic. Never an issue. I would recomend the Deerslay considering it seems to have all the features you wanted, plus versatiliy.

I also have an NEF Handi Rifle in .308 with a Tasco scope. It is an exellent long range rifle. I recomend them also ....

Here is what I did concerning the LEFTY issue. I basically gave up. I adapted. I have a double barrel for birds, my ithaca for others birds, a Benelli Nova 20 (right handed) for trap and dove and am examining the Nova 12 Special Purpose gun for the house.

Sorry, but I found it is much simpler to adapt my hand positioning then to fight for a strictly left hand gun. Since you are deer or hog hunting, more then one additional round is useless. And powder and shell ejection used to bother me, but I got over it quickly, it tastes good.
That being said, if I ever find a 20g Benelli Black Eagle in LH I will pounce on it so fast, the worlds rotation will momentarily stop. They are sweet. I saw one ... once and could not swing the $$$. Regret it highly.

 

[jlptexashunter]

Hastings make a fully rifled LH Model 870 Scope Mount Barrel.

http://www.hastingsbarrels.com/12para.html

1377H40 M-870LH, 2 3/4" & 3", 24", Scope Mount

 

[Guest]

Hastings does make left handed barrels for Remington shotguns (at least for Remington 870s). I bought a rifled one with a cantilever mount for slugs. Check out www.hastingsbarrels.com or Cabelas. As for the interchangeability of the left hand and right handed barrels, well, they are not. There is a lug on the breach end of the barrel on the right side (opposite the ejection port) on the left hand model. The lug is on the left side on the right handed model. Hope this helps.
A fellow lefty,

JP

 

[Dalee100]

Hi Lefty,

See, I knew people would know if Hastings had a lefty slug barrel. Like I said I've gone mountainman for big game hunting (and upland too. Love my 1850's pattern SxS). So I don't pay much attention to slug barrels any more.

JimmyP is right about the lug on the barrel at the chamber end. That is what I meant by barrel extention. And the length of that lug determines whether it fits a 2 3/4" reciever or a 3". The 3" having a longer extention to make it fit the Magnum sized reciever properly. And side of the barrel it's on determines whether it's a lefty or righty.

The Deerslayer2 sounds like a good gun. A little longer pull, and a "straighter" stock so as to make it feel more rifle-like. Should be less felt recoil.

I've never owned either 870 model myself, (Remingtons just don't fit me right) but my friends who do tell me they are inter-changable. The Specs should be identical for both.

A light contour barrel is made to be lighter in weight. They can shave a few ounces there. They do make the wall a bit thinner, but not by much. Mostly, they look more graceful than a standard profile. The ones I've seen are all proofed for industry standard pressures. They tend to be more expensive because they are generally made from better steel.

Twist rates can get to be a complicated piece of ballistic theory. Something I'm definitly not an expert in! But it can be some interesting reading. There are preformance points that can begin to have deminishing returns. I suspect there is less R&D in selecting the rate of twist than you might think. Mostly I think it is a philosophy. One company might want to make thier guns shoot shorter and lighter slugs better. The next might want to leand towards the longer heavier ones. So one gun ends up with a faster twist than the other. Though both will shoot all slugs pretty well, they will tend to prefer one over the other. This is a subject that probably could have it's own seperate thread. I don't think rate of twist is a patentable feature. It probably falls under prior art.

Dale[/img]

 

[Guest]

Let me just say that the Ithaca Guns built now are of excellent quality.

Yes, I have been happy with my 37 for many years. I don't plan on letting it go.. but I just have an itch to try something new.

I would recomend the Deerslay considering it seems to have all the features you wanted, plus versatiliy.

Have you (or anybody) ever tried the Deerslayer II or Deerslayer III? How is it?

The Deerslayer III is a mystery. I remember seeing it listed last year (when I was getting the itch) but now it is not listed on the Ithaca site (discontinued?). This article makes me want to check it out.. but I have a hard time finding Ithacas around here.

Here is an article I found that sparked my interest:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns ... yer_three/

Here is what I did concerning the LEFTY issue. I basically gave up. I adapted....I found it is much simpler to adapt my hand positioning then to fight for a strictly left hand gun.....And powder and shell ejection used to bother me, but I got over it quickly, it tastes good.

I believe this is what many lefties do.. which is why they don't think we are out there. It doesn't matter much for the Ithaca or Browning BPS.. which is where most of the lefties end up turning. Too bad the NRA or somebody independant doesn't do a study that could capture such info.

If I were right eye dominant, I think it would be easier to switch.. but I don't think I want to go through all the effort. I should have started 15 years ago if this were the case.

How bad is it? Shells across the face, eat power, shells hit arm? etc. I have never tried it.. but would be interested to hear more about what would happen.

That being said, if I ever find a 20g Benelli Black Eagle in LH I will pounce on it so fast, the worlds rotation will momentarily stop. They are sweet. I saw one ... once and could not swing the $$$. Regret it highly.

The Benelli's do sound sweet... and versitile.

 

[Lefty]

sorry- forgot to log in last time (and don't have the login feature set)...

fyi- this is the response I got back from Reminton:

"Thank you for your inquiry. The right and left hand barrels are not interchangable. The only difference between 29623 and 29625 is that 29623 is right hand and 29625 is left hand. Unfortunately, we do not offer a fully rifled barrel for the left hand model.

Unfortunately, there is not a fully rifled barrel offered for the 20 gauge. We have received several suggestions similar to yours and appreciate you taking the time to write in. We routinely forward all suggestions to our marketing departments for review. Consumer feedback allows us to understand consumer perception of our products. The greater the number of suggestions for a particular issue, the greater the likelihood of implementing the suggestion."

note: I confirmed that the reference to 20 ***** was a mistake.. but the answer applies to both 12 and 20 *****

this reminds me of a political campaign... but get out there and vote! Even if you don't plan on buying one in the future (even if you are right handed).. your email might help the sport along. I'm sure somebody you know is a lefty and could benefit from your actions... all the sites I went to (ie Remington, Ithaca etc) had simple web forms or email hyperlinks that make it so easy.

just my 2c

 

[Lefty]

Hastings make a fully rifled LH Model 870 Scope Mount Barrel.

http://www.hastingsbarrels.com/12para.html

1377H40 M-870LH, 2 3/4" & 3", 24", Scope Mount

Hmmm.. you are right. I am suprised I didn't catch that one. I guess because I was leaning more for an auto (11-87) or still hoping that I could get Ithaca's rifled barrel.

Speaking of the rifled barrel for my Ithaca.. they have 2 Hastings barrels listed for the 37 as well:

810H40 M-37 24'' 2 3/4'' Scope Mount
1376H40 M-37 24'' 2 3/4'' Scope Mount w/CSD

These are definite possiblities (sounds like it will fit my gun). How is the CSD feature?

Not Cheap though... and I only came across 2 avail on the web searching via item number (CSD version)

$320 @ Gander Mountain

http://www.gandermountain.com/gunsmithi ... arrels.asp

 

[Lefty]

Hastings does make left handed barrels for Remington shotguns (at least for Remington 870s). I bought a rifled one with a cantilever mount for slugs.

How is the quality of Hastings barrels? I see they are made in France via a different company and just imported by Hastings. Is the quality above or below that of certain manufacturers?

Have you tried a barrel with CSD? Is it a useful feature?