[Case]

Those photos should dispel any concerns that a MEC press can't be adjusted to produce excellent crimps on 12 gauge shotshells loaded with extremely light shot weights -- without the use of any kind of filler material.

I originally adjusted a Grabber to produce the 3/4 oz. crimp in the photo on the right, then thought I'd push it a little farther to see if a decent crimp could be had with an even lighter shot load.

So I put an 11/16 oz. bar in a Sizemaster, tinkered around with the adjustments and finally got the results in the left photo, which shows only slightly more dishing than the 3/4 oz. crimp.

Neither shell leaks so much as a single pellet, even after some banging around. The hulls are Remington Game Loads, but any hull could be adjusted accordingly, except maybe the Federal, which seems to have a very large interior.

All it took was a little less crimp starter, raising the crimp punch some and adding more cam (by moving it down) to all but eliminate the hole in the center. The wad pressure was left at its factory setting of about 30 lbs., which seats the wad firmly down on the powder.

Takes a good bit of fiddling around with adjustments but it can be done. And it's easiest done with the WAA12L gray wad or its Claybuster clone, the CB1078-12.

The two most important adjustments are the crimp punch depth and expecially the cam. Actually, I don't think starting with a more open crimp has much to do with it. I tried it with a fairly open starter crimp and one a pencil wouldn't fit in and it seemed to make no difference.

Obviously, there's no way to avoid some dishing of the crimp but it won't matter so long as the crimp closes nicely and spills no shot.

Raising the punch depth leaves more material available for closing the crimp and the added cam pushes the material inward to close the center hole.

And the crimp depth rim is still adequately deep.

The adjustments will produce good crimps with either 3/4 or 11/16 oz. shot weights -- and no filler material!

 

[12GA guy]

without the use of any kind of filler material[/b].
!

No doubt the crimp will hold the shot. I always wonder though if a deeper dished crimp like the pictured 11/16oz, causes any problems with the wad, or increased pressures, to push that crimp all the way back out, so the wad can get past. You would think that it would be hard on the hull life as well. Have you shot any yet to see how they perform?

Now on to the 1/2oz loads Case.. Just think of the shot we could save. Over double the loads per bag of shot! :wink:

 

[Case]

I always wonder though if a deeper dished crimp like the pictured 11/16oz, causes any problems with the wad, or increased pressures...You would think that it would be hard on the hull life as well. Have you shot any yet to see how they perform?

I've reloaded those 10 or 11 times in the Remington hulls.

They're real target busters and the deeper crimps don't seem to have any effect at all on hull life. With eight or nine thousand pounds of pressure pushing on it, it doesn't take much to open up a crimp.

And actually, that crimp isn't as deep as it may appear and it's still normally flat up around the rim.

Now on to the 1/2oz loads Case.. Just think of the shot we could save. Over double the loads per bag of shot! :wink:

I think I ripped the envelope all to hell with that 11/16 load. Took a lot of tinkering to get that crimp.

Now I'll have to suffer the agony of deciding whether to stay with that or just be satisfied with "wasting" another 10 or 15 grains of lead on the 3/4 oz. load and a mite better crimp.

 

[TReX300]

Good job Case.....as you know I've always said that with a little tinkering you can load the 3/4oz without a problem. 11/16 thats even better yet. I heard that BP or someone has some proper 3/4oz 12ga wads. Do you know of them? I've been loading some 5/8oz but I do need a couple of puffed-wheat to basicly the same load your useing. I was hoping to find out something about the 3/4oz wads and maybe try them. Anything like that up here though is next to impossible to find out about and even harder to actually get.
One other thing I've been thinking about. When getting into these "ultralite" 12ga loads have you ever given the thought of trying Bullseye as a powder? I though about getting a pound of it but once again its not avalaible in my area.

Tim

 

[thor_sen]

case,

awesome pics, and thread!

if you're pleased with the CB grays, just wait'l you try the Federal F12SO's -- I am att 11/16's and lower!

NOTE: Pass on the CB clones for the F12SO's, though; they really DO foul my bore terribly with plastic.

All in all, though; I don't mind too much as, it is easy for me to clean the bore when i walk of the line, and; it IS worth those awesome light loads -- ooodles more loads out of each shot bag AND they smack birds hard!!! (Plenty of straights with 3/4 oz 12ga under my belt, now!)

Still, once I finish up this last 7M of the CB F12SO clones, it is back to the Federal products for me -- if I can find 'em at a decent price!

 

[TReX300]

thor_sen.....what load are you usieng for the 11/16oz loads with the 12S0's? I'm a firm believer in that wad in a tapered hull for light 3/4oz loads. Some say its no good as its for a straight walled hull but I've had unbelieveably consistant results with my light loads when using them.
I normally load them over 16.5-17grns of Promo and seat them till my wad pressure gauge just starts to move. It leaves a little space over the powder but they seal up real nice and I've had no problems with them loaded like that.

Tim

 

[EyeMissum]

Whats next, Case?
If you could get a wad with a long enough legs to it, could you load a 1/4 oz. or 1/2 oz. load in the 12 ga. or would you have to use a filler. Not being snide, just curious.

Could it be done at all?

I'm getting ready to try some 5/8 oz. loads in the 28 ga. to see how they do.

 

[cbxchris]

I`ve got a couple 12 ga presses sitting there not used with adj bars. I`m going to try the 3/4 oz loads in the morning. Then see how they do at skeet in the evening. I use red dot...I`m assuming 16.5 grs is about right? correct? I usually try to load at 1200fps. I`m not concerned about using these in a auto...O/U only.

 

[thor_sen]

cbxchris,

you bring up a good point. that is, what is / are the best powder(s) to use in 'pushing the envelope to the lighter side' recipes.

much progress has been made with respect to volume vs. wad and payloads (thanks case) but,

I am always battling with being on the verge of (or, over the line) with respect to in-efficient burning of the powders I am using

(currently only alliant's e3 and h'don clays)

having much success with 15.3 - 15.5 of e3 under 11/16's and 3/4 oz respectively but, boy oh boy is it ever DIRTY! (and that is certainly not the e3's fault -- it is my own for 'pushing the envelope' with respect to light payloads . . .

 

[Tumbleweeed]

I have been working with a similar load using 3/4 oz hard 8's, STS hull, win 209, CB 0178 grey wad and a wheat puff. I am also intrested in new ideas for powder in these light loads as I'm currently using 14.7 gr of Titewad with good results after shooting only a couple boxes. I should add that my mec bar throws a light charge of shot at only 310-315 grains so it's a little under 3/4 oz. These loads will be used in warm weather only and I would like to go with a lower velocity and a lighter powder charge.

What powder works best for low pressure loads?

Tumbleweed

 

[thor_sen]

Again, I'm using 15.3 of Alliant's e3 -- under 3/4oz of hard shot sitting in the Federal F12SO (or, not so great CB clone).

VERY happy with performance -- exterior & impact ballistically speaking -- 'cept, seems powder could burn a lot more completely (interior ballistics).

I haven't gone below the powder loads published for 3/4 oz using Clays since I tried once and noticed real lack of burning, etc. (Just irks me to have to use the same amount of powder as I do for 7/8 and 1oz loads!)

I may keep my eyes open for some IMR 'PB' powder and based on the comments about it in another thread this forum (TexasTon's, specifically, addresses it in 3/4 oz loads).

I tried Solo 1000 but, never got below 7/8 oz with it (again, NOT the powder's fault!)

I don't any time (or funds) for 'xperimentin' any longer so, I'll probably stick with the above 15.3 to 15.5 of e3 load until somebody here (or elsewhere) discovers some other powder options, etc.

My goal is to never have to use any type of 'filler' -- personally, that is where I have "drawn the line" with respect to how far I am willing to go in this pursuit but, that's just me (I have NO extra time, anymore! ;-)

Yes, warm weather only for 3/4 oz loads although, using e3 means warm weather can be as low as 45 - 50 `F ... another benefit of using e3!!!

Once it starts approaching getting below 50, I switch over to my 7/8 oz loads for skeet (and a LOT of other stuff, too!): 7/8 / 16.0 e3 / CB 4100 / Win Gray or / CB clone of the Win gray.

 

[Case]

I heard that BP or someone has some proper 3/4oz 12ga wads. Do you know of them?

I've never heard of one and doubt anyone makes one or ever will, Tim. Tightwads like us are in the extreme minority and there wouldn't be enough market demand to justify the expensive molds.

I love these CB0178-12 clones of the WAA12L. When I ordered those I had Recob's throw in a bag of Claybuster clones of the Federal 12S0 just to see how they compare.

Their legs are a good 1/16" shorter than the CB0178-12, leaving even more of a shot gap. When I load those with 3/4 oz., I get almost exactly the same dishing of the crimp as I do with 11/16 oz. and the CB0178-12.

I just don't see any advantage to them over the taller wad.

I've been loading some 5/8oz but I do need a couple of puffed-wheat to basicly the same load your useing.

5/8 oz.? Wow... Talk about pushing the envelope...

I'll probably standardize on this 3/4 oz. load, but I'm not changing the settings on the Sizemaster until I get my two jugs of Promo this week and see if it's any bulkier than 700-X and might fill out the hull a little better.

Supposedly, it's denser than Red Dot, which might work even better with the 11/16 oz. load -- except for the price.

(Damned UPS has changed its policy again and now WON'T SHIP propellants in the same box with primers under a single hazmat fee. Those turds need some competition from someone not out to rip off the consumer.)

One other thing I've been thinking about. When getting into these "ultralite" 12ga loads have you ever given the thought of trying Bullseye as a powder? I though about getting a pound of it but once again its not avalaible in my area.

Bullseye is a very hot handgun powder and wouldn't do at all in a shotshell -- not even .410. I used to load .38 light target hard-cast lead wadcutters with only 2.4 grains of it. Just wouldn't work in any shotshell.

I'm getting ready to try some 5/8 oz. loads in the 28 ga. to see how they do.

I think you'll love 'em.

They crimp perfectly in a AA-HS hull with 13 grains of Unique (No. 20 MEC bushing) and either the WAA28HS or CB5034-28HS wad. No messing with UCBs or anything else -- just drop the stock bar and bushing in and you're good to go.

The stock MEC 5/8 oz. bar actually drops MORE than the true 273.44 grains in 5/6 oz., and averages about 280 grains of No. 9. First MEC bar I've ever seen that actually drops more than it's supposed to.

And no, I'm not even thinking about a 1/2 oz. 12 gauge load -- or even a 5/8 oz. I figured I was nutty enough with the 11/16 experiment.

If you're pleased with the CB grays, just wait'l you try the Federal F12SO's -- I am att 11/16's and lower!

They don't work for me. See my reply to TReX300.

 

[TReX300]

Case.....I know Bullseye is a very fast powder. Way to fast for anything smaller than 12ga. I do have some data for it in 12ga loads somewhere, Lyman's 3rd I think. Alliant lists it as suitable for light 12ga target loads aswell. I cant remember the exact data for it right now so I wont even guess at posting it but it was for 7/8oz and 1oz loads in the 1050-1180fps range. If I can find it it I'll post it. I thought it might work well being faster burning by letting us get away with a lower powder charge then whats need with for good (consistant) burning with powders like Red Dot.
I load Promo and 700-X with most of the loads that are similar end up using either a bushing or sometimes two larger in volume with the Promo over the 700-x. It helps with filling the hull up for sure.

Tim

 

[thor_sen]

Case.....I know Bullseye is a very fast powder. Way to fast for anything smaller than 12ga. I do have some data for it in 12ga loads somewhere, Lyman's 3rd I think. Alliant lists it as suitable for light 12ga target loads aswell. I cant remember the exact data for it right now so I wont even guess at posting it but it was for 7/8oz and 1oz loads in the 1050-1180fps range.

Yes, I too remember seeing 7/8 oz / Bullseye loads referenced at the top of one of the pages in Alliant's Inter-active loading data pages; something about "See botom this page".

However, there was never anything at the bottom of the page.

I asked here (and e-mailed Alliant's "Contact Us" link) but, never got a reply as to where that data might be accessed . . .

 

[Case]

Nope, nothing at the bottom of the page, anywhere on the site or in the printed load guide that I can find.

But by jove there are some recipes in Lyman's 3rd and 4th editions.

I just never paid any attention to Bullseye as any kind of shotshell powder and didn't even like it for handguns because as dirty powders go it was literally filthy.

I'm hoping Promo is considerably courser than 700-X and American Select to help pad out these hulls, since I've ordered two jugs of it, which should be here tomorrow or the next day.

 

[360]

I called Alliant about the 12g loads usng Bullseye since I use it in my 45acp loads. Can't remember exactly how many grains ( I think 15 ). I loaded a box up and shot them at the skeet range. I can only use seat of the pants impressions since I don't own a chrono but I didn't like the load compared to 16.7 grains of clays and it was visually dirtier. Clays is still very clean with either 3/4 or 7/8 ounce loads.

 

[Case]

I would like to go with a lower velocity and a lighter powder charge.

What powder works best for low pressure loads?

I overlooked your question. Sorry.

When I get the Promo Monday or Tuesday, I'll chronograph some 3/4 oz. loads with that, American Select and 700-X.

Unfortunately, I don't have any Titewad, Clays or Red Dot on hand, but I may get a pound of each later.

Stay tuned to this topic.

 

[cbxchris]

I tried the 3/4 oz loads today. Just from a personal observation I can`t tell a bit of difference in skeet with 1oz loads except the recoil difference. I used 16.8 grs of red dot and the grey CB 1078 clone. My crimps looked great with gun club hulls. I`ve got to get out the chrono now and do a little shooting to see what I really have. I`m usually a 21 to 24 average per round shooter and shot a 24 first round so I couldn`t see any handy cap. I went out and got two shells each of factory 1oz gun clubs, 7/8 oz 17.5 red dot,1oz 19.5 green dot and the 3/4 oz load for comparison sake in recoil and barrel fouling. The factory loads recoil worst followed in order by the other 1 oz load then the 7/8 and then far lighter the 3/4 loads. Barrel fouling was in the same order with it getting progressively worse. Guess I`ll try the 11/16 load next. I`d like to thank you guys for turning me on to these light loads. I was going to get some 28 ga tubes for one of my cynergy`s. They can keep the tubes...no need. I`ll now just get a set of 410 tubes only. Amazing what you can learn here.

 

[EyeMissum]

I shot a couple of cbxchris's 3/4 oz. 12 ga. loads today. They pulverized skeet just as good as a 1 oz. load

Recoil? About like shooting the 28 ga.

Very soft recoil for a 12 ga. shell. Course I was shooting them in a 10 lb. gun an that helps too. Still, a very light recoiling load for the 12 ga.

 

[thor_sen]

I have no idea how accurate or even creedible this is but, an employee at Miller's Guns in Delaware told me over the phone that Promo is really just powder from the beginning and end of each "run" they make of Red Dot . . .

(I had called as they were advertising the Promo for about $10.00 / lb, which caught my eye rather quickly.)