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Question:
NSSA no longer require the referee to be tested or approved (licensed) by them (except at the World). What is the benefit of being a "licensed" referee?
Was this done to benefit small clubs? Or was there just a lack of "licensed" referees?

Please don't take this the wrong way; I fully support the licensing of referees, but not seeing the benefit, what am I missing? (I have taken the test and sent my fee, just like every year).

V/R
M. Bird
 

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In zone 1 we have never required licenced refs. On any given weekend, if a shoot is short, shooters will fill in. I took the test years ago (like 15) but pull targets every year. NSSA has never required a licenced referee. This is nothing new.

Now individual cheifs, that's a different story.
 
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You take an open book test and you are forced to review the rules. You get a nice patch from NSSA for five bucks. You earn the respect and admiration of your cohorts. Reffing is a nice way to give back to the game. Becoming certified is something you should do. Drop a line to your State Chief Ref. He will hook you up. Is it worth it to recertify every year? Yes if you collect the patches. Otherwise..umm..well..can't hurt to review the rulebook.
 

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As Eric has stated, some chief referee's won't use any but the certified referee's.

This certification program is there to assure that the referee's are up to date on rules changes and have been instructed on how to handle the job correctly and as uniformly as possible across the nation.

While there are exceptions, for the most part, certified referee's just handle the job more efficiently, due to their training and their committment to the job as demonstrated by taking the time and effort to become certified.

DLM
 

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As far as I can tell, in Maryland and surrounding states of VA, and DE, all the refs at the shoots I attend are NSSA certified...even the smaller shoots that basically send trap kids out to pull get make them pass the test (I'm thinking of PG's small shoots).

Seems like a good approach to me.

Cheers
 

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As i've said before, 90% of a refs job is to give on time pulls, about 5% putting hit or miss on the score sheet, and the other 5% knowing the rules. I'd MUCH rather have a ref thats on time but uncertain as to the rules than one that knows every nuance of the rule book but can't pull a target on time if you put a gun to their head. If theres a question as to the rules, there is usually @ least one person on a squad that knows them like the back of their hand.

This will be taken care of as most bigger shoots (hopefully in the near future) move to some sort of voice release. Then you can send out someone to score (after running through the ref test or some truncated version thereof) and still have perfect targets. If you could have volunteer/club member scorers at a shoot, or local school kids, the pay scale would be appreciably lower than the refs we have now (I hear going pay is $80-$100 per day, sometimes free food, sometimes free camper space), allowing shoots to run with lower entry cost or greater payouts (either of which would increase attendance @ shoots). If you can hire a highschool kid for 7 bucks an hour to mark hit or miss on a piece of paper, assuming an 8hr work day, you've cut your cost by close to $30/day/ref plus all the comp'ed stuff, it would not take that long to amortize the cost of the voice releases.
 
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Skeet_Man said:
As i've said before, 90% of a refs job is to give on time pulls, about 5% putting hit or miss on the score sheet, and the other 5% knowing the rules. I'd MUCH rather have a ref thats on time but uncertain as to the rules than one that knows every nuance of the rule book but can't pull a target on time if you put a gun to their head. If theres a question as to the rules, there is usually @ least one person on a squad that knows them like the back of their hand.
Why settle for one or the other when you should and can have both? A ref must be more than young with good reflexes.
They must also be more than rules books with feet.

Voice release substantially solves the bad pull issue. And it's coming.

Self reffing, with authority vested in a different squad member each round is the answer to reducing ref costs. The game must have someone in authority to adjudicate in a manner unbiased to all concerning matters of fact or application. That is one reason every skeeter should become a certified referee -so that he or she can function in that capacity.
 

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My club has two fields and will be hosting five matches this coming year. I am the only certified ref, and usually act as the Chief Ref for the matches. We also typically only provide a ref for the first round, then pass the duties off to the squad for the remainder. Our refs are all volunteer - no pay, but our matches are the least expensive in the state.
 

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Ian, Ian, Ian, my boy. Come sit on my knee. A $100 referee costs the shooter five bucks a gun. An eight dollar an hour high school kid, (no, it isn't an eight hour day, it is an eleven hour day), costs about $4.25 a gun unless the shoot management gets gunshy and figures they have to cover them with insurance and unemployment benefits. Ian, my boy, a $100 or $125 a day qualified referee is a bargain and they are very hard to get.
 
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If the rules were explicit enough and everyone read and understood them enough there would be no debates. All that would remain is the establishment of fact as determined by the referee.

Everyone pulling 100 targets on squads not their own is a way to get the reffing done. It saves you from distractions not your own score related.

But if you think about it for a moment you should see that it does not resolve the spectre of proprietary favoritism or vindictiveness any better than other solutions involving shooters refereeing in their own tournaments. In that regard, there is no guarantee against dishonor even with professional referees. Only less likelihood.

Reffing on your own squad keeps it simple. Rotating the honors within the squad keeps it fair. To me it's moot. To some I suppose significant.
 

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lowgun- not sure where your getting the 11hr day figure from. Most flights start @ 9am and are done by 6, which would give you a 9hr day if you were pulling all day (or 8.5 hrs with a mandatory half hr unpaid lunch), assuming you pull 4 flights, your down to a 6hr day pay/work wise (if you figure their "off flights" are unpaid breaks). You don't need everyone to remain there for shootoffs either, so the average paid day would be somewhere b/w 6-8hrs. Figure on 7 hrs average, paying $7.25/hr, your looking @ $50.75 per person per day, which cuts your referee cost virtually in half. Figure @ a 10 field shoot, you'd need 15 refs/pullers/day. That would mean you'd save $738.75 on refs PER DAY, or roughly 1846.87 over the course of a 3 day shoot.

As an aside, trap shoots already run with school kids and voice releases, why is is such a difficult issue for the skeet guys to wrap their heads around? At BIG shoots (the grand, ect) their targets are $35/100 before options, at big skeet shoots the targets are $50-60+ before options (and are $20/100 vs $35/100 for local shoots), there has to be some reason they can throw EXACTLY the same targets for ALOT less $, and I think not having to pay for referees has alot to do with it. $5-$6.25 per 100 targets may not seem like alot to some, but thats close to 15% of your entry fee for local shoots ($35/gun).

I'm still trying to get pricing on the CVR units for skeet, they just discontinued all the wired models and I don't think the skeet wireless are in the country yet. However, if you look at the trap version, the wireless setup is $2K per field, so i'd rough guess $3K for a skeet setup (assuming the setup has a horn @ every station, would be even less if it had movable horns). Bottom lining it, if you can save $1846.87 over 3 days (plus perks), you'd completely pay for voice releases for ALL the fields after 16 shoots (8 years or less for shoots that hold @ least 2 shoots a year which most of the 10 field+ clubs probably do).

All that being said, I have immense respect for the refs we have, given our present situation with no alternative, we would NOT be able to shoot without them. However, at least around here, the average age of a ref is probably over 60, with VERY few new people becoming refs, and that being the case, their may come a point in the future, because we have no alternative, that shoots may have to limit entries not based on the number of shooters their fields can hold, but on the number of refs that are available for that weekend. I'm sure most of those guys would like to shoot at some point as well, but most know if they shoot instead of ref, there may not even be enough refs to run the shoot. Also, as shoots become more and more expensive (shells, targets, travel, hotel, ect), we HAVE to find someway to cut the cost for the average shooter if we expect our numbers to even maintain where they are now. Offering less for more (or even the same $) is not the way to do it. Cutting payouts aren't an option as far as i'm concerned, skeet already has a bad rap for being the shotgun sport with the lowest payouts for wins. If I can save 15% of the cost of my shoot, or even 10% or 5%, by shooting over voice releases, i'm all for it.

I am, however, not in favor with self reffing. I barely have enough energy or attention span to shoot 200 targets a day, let alone have to ref an entire squad, not to mention the fact that the older shooters may not physically be able to endure the extra time out in the sun.
 
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Em Are Skeet said:
But they are aren't explicit, everyone hasn't read them, and parts cannot be understood.
I cannot conjur a substantive reason why registered skeet participants do not read their rule books. I think those that do not will never argue any point of fact or ruling and in that do not represent a problem: They wish to shoot without controversy getting minimally involved in the details and are amiably led to slaughter with a shrug and a grin. Otherwise, for the rest of us semi-involved types there is no excuse for not knowing what the words ARE. What the words mean..well..you are taught the practical applications thru experience..sometimes you are taught right and sometimes not. That is a pity.

Again a plug for referee certification here.
The tests are good and thorough and open book and you LEARN. The neat thing is you learn in practical application scenerios too where you have to apply the rules to situations.

OK. Now. On to my pet peave.

Is the NSSA ducking my inquiries which ask about the wind or other conditions that might produce irregular or unfair opportunities? Maybe. To date I cannot get a response that speaks to whether or not the rule for regular targets includes or precludes deviations due to wind. I am 99% sure what the answer is I just as of yet cannot make them say it.

The big deal about this is whether or not NSSA sees this issue as potentially harmful to the clubs' bottom lines and in that sense therefore not in the best interests of Registered Skeet to specify an answer which might make it harder for clubs to conduct shoots (profitably).

Heiple adressed the definition of regular target in his last piece in the magazine but never said word one about wind and I took his answer as a response to my question. I have to since I got no personal answer like I was promised. I discussed wind with Don Snyder who listened noncommitally and passed the info and/or the issue to Heiple. I have another more specifically worded inquiry into Mr. Heiple and am awaiting a reply. It is the holidays and people are busy. I am patient. We will see what we will see. Even silence has meaning.
 

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I got pricing today on the Canterbury 1 Horn Wireless Skeet release, which is $1495 per field, so using my figures from before, a 10 field club would completely amortize the cost of putting voice releases on all their fields after 8 shoots (4 years for most big clubs), after that the club would be able to reduce each shooters overall entry fee by close to $40 (10-15%), or add almost 2K in money back to payouts for the shoot (which would make for some VERY nice championship/class payouts!), or some combination thereof.
 

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mike modelle said:
Heiple adressed the definition of regular target in his last piece in the magazine
I looked up the article. It turns out he didn't write about the definition of regular target. He wrote about legal targets, whatever they are. I can't find the term legal target in the Rulebook.
 

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Em Are,

Legal Targets and Regular targets are the same thing. Legal targets are Regular Targets, and Regular Targets are Legal Targets.

The verbage doesn't really matter. Much ado about nothing.

DLM
 
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