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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, guys im new to the forum, however i've been reading posts for a while. I am ready to purchase my first 12 gauge. I need soft recoil so I talked my self into a semi. I have narrowed it down to two models one european and one made in the USA. My purpose for using will be primarily Trap/Sporting clays with the possible evolution into mild upland bird hunting.

I narrowed it down to first the Franchi 712 Raptor, (I like the silver reciever, ported barrel, and extended chokes.) However im concered about quality in the long term. I recently shouldered it and it looks great with its wood pattern, but the bolt release handle kind of wiggled around a bit, dont now if thats a testament to long term quality.

My second choice is the new Remington 1100 G3. Great hi-gloss wood, feels good, smooth well built action, Classy case however non- ported and the barrel is only 28 inches with internal pro-bore chokes.

I would be apreciative of any advice/opinions you have.
Thanks Dr.D

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Given your choices, I'd go with the Remington 1100 G3, being a gas operated gun the recoil will "feel" softer. The non-ported barrels are a blessing, those little holes get dirty very quickly and are a PITA to keep clean. I have them on my Mossberg 930, if they were gone, I wouldn't miss them a bit!!

Smitty
 

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Agree with the 1100. Also agree with the porting being a non-issue. Aside from having to purchase pipe cleaners to get the crap out of them, for shotguns I find they just make the gun louder without affecting perceived recoil.
 

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While I previously suggested the 1100 because I believe in the cost for performance value in that gun, I'm wondering if you have looked at the Beretta line? The Walmarts by me don't carry firearms, but I hear a lot of folks say the 390 at Walmart is fantastic. The internals should be the same as any other 390. I have a 3901 Statesman (for sale, by the way) and it runs like a champ even on 7/8oz 1150fps reloads. It's soft shooting but the gun is light, perfect for hunting. It also doesn't have the O-ring maintenance to deal with like the Remingtons. Its extremely easy to clean, but it will go hundreds of rounds without needing cleaning. MSRP for a synthetic 3901 is around $600, you can find them for $500.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks again,

(Gallonoffuel) I have looked at some berettas they are as all say perfect. They cycle great, feel great and are soft shooting. I'll be honest Berettas wood didnt catch my eye, even there extra-grain model. It also seems like if you want a great beretta with optima overboring and all it is in the $ 1800. range.

thanks for your advice, also im going to stick to new for my first purchase, but thanks anyway.
 

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Dr. D - You will be happy with your decision to go with the Remington. As you learn more about the shotgun game, and accumulate some experience, such things as over-boring and barrel porting will lose most, if not all, of their appeal.

You mention that recoil is an issue for you (as it is for me) there are several ways to deal with it: proper gun fit, heavier gun weight, lighter shot charge, slower muzzle speeds, gas operated auto-loaders and recoil pads all reduce perceived recoil. If you want to get into some of the details, here is a recent post on the subject:

Since recoil is the very thing I love to hate, I made a visit to Google to find a recoil calculator website and have a look at the numbers:

http://www.zknives.com/bali/brcstgn.shtml

Since I have no reloading experience, I used powder weights from the Alliant website to compare the relative benefits from reducing the amount of shot vs reducing speed. Alliant's data for shotgun loads are in the 1145 to 1230 fps range. While faster speeds might require more powder, and slower less, than the Alliant tables suggest, the impact of the differences in powder weight on recoil does not change the conclusions.

It appears that reducing the shot charge from 1 1/8 oz down to 28 grams at a given speed reduces recoil energy about 22% - so eugene molloy's perception of less recoil from the shells he uses is well supported by the numbers.

Reducing speed from 1350 fps down to 980 fps for a given shot charge reduces recoil energy about 47% - so a sub-sonic speed also offers a substantial reduction in recoil. (For someone accustomed to shooting 1200 fps speeds, the benefit of going sub-sonic is a 33% reduction in recoil energy.)

The WinLite Low Recoil ammunition that ffffg asked about does both. If 1 1/8 oz of shot is your normal 12 ga load, that is reduced by about 12% in a WinLite shell, and the speed also comes down, from say 1200 fps to 980 fps or about 18% slower. The combined result of these reductions on recoil energy according to the calculator is a total of about 48% or almost half!

I hope someone else out there will verify these results using more precise reloading data and perhaps a different recoil calculator and correct me if I have made a mistake. It might not change the general conclusion (less weight in the charge and less speed out the muzzle means less recoil) but it is always interesting to know, How much?

Here is a link to a metric converter for anyone interested: http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm There are 7,000 grains per pound, or 437.5 grains per ounce. 28 grams equals 0.9877 ounces or 432.12 grains. Anyone out there know how many wads in a pound, or grains in a wad?

FYI - A link to a web page on recoil: http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/T ... ec-04.html

The Adventure continues . . .
 

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Here is another observation on recoil taken from - http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscella.htm

If the firearm is not tightly held the firearm gets a "running start" and smacks the shooter harder. Anyone who has had a bad mount with a rifle or shotgun probably has had the black and blue mark to prove this. With a firm grip the shooter's body mass dampens the firearm's motion and the perceived recoil is less.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sidelocksxs,
Thanks for the advice, i havent been able to visit those sites yet but thank you.

Let me pick your brain about recoil dampening. What have you heard about berettas systems known as kick-off ? Does it trully help dampen felt recoil ? Thanks Dr.D
 

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Dr. D - Sorry to say I have no experience with the Beretta device, but someone visiting these Forums should be able to help you with this. You might want to do a search on or re-post the question to the General shotgun forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Sidelocksxs,
Thanks for your help and advice, I truly appreciate it. I 'll let you know. Also this forum its members and organization is great. Its nice to know it exists and every one is willing to help the new guys out. Like many sports it's hard to be a beginner, this forum makes a whole lot easier, especially when dealers 20 years in business give you conflicting info.

Anyway Happy Thanksgiving!

Dr.D
 

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Just FYI, the Raptor is also gas operated and soft shooting. I have one (712) and love it. My sister who is 19 and weighs about 100 lbs. has no problem shooting it. It is very similar to the beretta semi and can be had at a resonable price, if you can find one. I bought mine used and got a 26" non ported along with the 30" ported barrel. I haven't even used the 30" barrel, but I mostly use it to hunt. I haven't had any cycling issues and it is not hard to clean. That being said, the Remington is a tried and true model and the Beretta semis are awesome.
 

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I would go with the Remmington. I own Benelli stuff and Franchi is a company under the same umbrella but, even so I would go with the tried and true Remminton in this case.

Ported barrels aren't really that important. Either are extended chokes. Those are nice things but, they really are not necessary at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks for all your advice. IT seems as though im leaning toward the Remington more, however I need to get over my need for wanting to own European gun. Im working on it. With the holidays approaching im considering waiting till after to buy because I dont see myself geeting much use until January.

(aiken) & (greensock) i really like the Franchi 712, I found one NIB by me for $799.00 however when i shouldered it, I felt the bolt release handle to wiggle around a bit. Im not sure if its a big thing but the price is right. The remingon made a nice presentation, its a few hundred more and to even further confuse my self I recently started looking at Beretta Urika 2's.

Im going to take some more time to decide. Im just really Happy that I talked myself out of the $ 1,800.00+ Benelli Super Sport that i intially went nuts over. Beutiful Gun just not for my first purchase.
 

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How about only $1275 for a Benelli SuperSport?
http://pacificsportingarms.com/search-r ... at=0&qmod=

Dr.D said:
Thanks for all your advice. IT seems as though im leaning toward the Remington more, however I need to get over my need for wanting to own European gun. Im working on it. With the holidays approaching im considering waiting till after to buy because I dont see myself geeting much use until January.

(aiken) & (greensock) i really like the Franchi 712, I found one NIB by me for $799.00 however when i shouldered it, I felt the bolt release handle to wiggle around a bit. Im not sure if its a big thing but the price is right. The remingon made a nice presentation, its a few hundred more and to even further confuse my self I recently started looking at Beretta Urika 2's.

Im going to take some more time to decide. Im just really Happy that I talked myself out of the $ 1,800.00+ Benelli Super Sport that i intially went nuts over. Beutiful Gun just not for my first purchase.
 

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Seriously just select the Remington, Benelli, Browning Gold or Beretta that feels comfortable. Start shooting lots...

You mentioned trap and sporting clays as primary interests. I'd get one that was setup for sporting clays and shoot it for both games. If you become serious about trap then buy a serious trap gun. If you have a SuperSport or a Beretta 391 or Browning you won't "need" to buy a better gun for sporting though you will probably want others.

I own a 391 Teknys Gold Sporting with a shell catcher it's fine for casual trap, has a bezillion options that you may want to experiment with, and excellent support from knowledgeable denizens of these forums.

Have fun, shoot lots, take a lesson or two, don't worry about the buying the perfect gun. If you are new to the game you won't recognize your ideal gun is for months or years. You will be hitting the targets not the best gun, most potent shell, or most wonderful choke.

Pontificating mode off > sometimes I wish I followed my own advise more frequently.
 

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John Pass - Agree with you on the Remington 1100 - a fine man's gun, and likewise a good gun for the distaff side as well as boys and girls in the smaller gauges when fitted with a youth stock. However, guns made by George Granger, now retired, of St. Etienne, France are something really special. M. Levy continues the tradition, and I for one would consider myself most fortunate to own one. Smelly, maybe - but then I love the smell of gunpowder. Have a great day and, Always,

Shoot Safe, SidelockSxS
 

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SidelockSxS said:
John Pass - Agree with you on the Remington 1100 - a fine man's gun, and likewise a good gun for the distaff side as well as boys and girls in the smaller gauges when fitted with a youth stock. However, guns made by George Granger, now retired, of St. Etienne, France are something really special. M. Levy continues the tradition, and I for one would consider myself most fortunate to own one. Smelly, maybe - but then I love the smell of gunpowder. Have a great day and, Always,

Shoot Safe, SidelockSxS
Maybe you should have no gun at all. Considering your complete lack of a sense of humor! It was a joke. Calm down man.
 

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John Pass - Smiles going both ways John - no harm intended - just could not resist touting the fine work of Granger. Sorry to ruffle your feathers down there in Georgia - snowing up here in the Northeast, but didn't mean to be frosty.
 
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