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I asked about the Red Label 12 gauge for skeet today at the local skeet range. All indicated it was a fine gun but it was a little light for skeet. When comparing weight data of numerous other brands the 12 gauge Red Label seemed to be the heaviest of the bunch with the advertised weight of 8 lbs. Most of the skeet shooters add weight and recoil devices on their Brownings and Berettas anyway.

My question is the Red Label lighter than its advertised weight or is this weight problem just a rumor?????
 

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I've got a 12 ga RRL...and it's plenty heavy. No worse than most 12 ga o/u's. The folks you were talking to may have been politely saying that some people find the stock dimensions of the RRL to transmit more recoil than some other guns. I don't, personally, but that doesn't mean other peoples perceptions are wrong. (I find the Browning Superposed to kick like a mule, but many folks don't.)

good luck and good shooting
hunter20ga
 

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The Ruger is fine for skeet. Some find them muzzle heavy and the sub gauge guns people find to be "whippy", but for me any sub gauge guns feel "whippy" compaired to a 12 ga. Shoot your Ruger and ingnore those others. There just seems to be a lot of folks who dont' like RRL for any reason other that it's not a Browning or a Beretta. I've had mine called the Chevy Vega of o/u by shooters before. I can run 25 at skeet just fine with mine and the 12 ga hammers ducks. My 20 ga has taken countless rabbits and quail. It mounts so fast that I have been know to shot the rabbit before the words, "there's one" can get out of m mouth. And I have nuked 2 quail before with nothing left but wings! :shock: Opps! I now count to 5 before shooting (well maybe 3) :twisted:

APEXDUCK
 

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Advertised weight and actual weight often vary dramatically. My 682 Gold E is advertised at 7.5 lbs, but actually weighed in at 9lbs2ozs... a huge difference.

The Ruger *is* too light for serious clays shooting if you expect to be competitive. It *is* muzzle heavy and poorly balanced. It *isn't* built to hold up to the demands of the shooter going though 20,000+ shells a year. It *should not* flop open the way it does (I don't care what any Ruger defender says). The rib *should not* rattle... lot's of companies make guns with adjustable ribs that don't rattle. The same thing goes for the forend... on a gun that price, the rib should *not* rattle. Some *do* have trigger problems. It *does* have an msrp that's totally out of line with it's competitors. Lastly, it *does* have poor resale value.

That said, it's an ok field gun, and will last you a lifetime if you don't put it through the rigors that a high volume shooter would. It *is* better in quality than the Baikal's and Khans, and perhaps most importantly for some, it *is* American made.
 

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I think we have a TROLL on I love my RUGER board ignore it, it will pass,drsfmd knows little if anything,of what it speaks...butch45lc
 

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Butch-

I know *EXACTLY* of what I speak. I owned (note the past tense) a RRL that was an absolute POS, and gave me nothing but headaches... never again!.

If I don't know what I speak of, prove me wrong... go ahead, tell the world that your beloved Ruger is supposed to have a rib that rattles, that it is supposed to flop open, That there's any top guns on the clays circuit using a Ruger, that it isn't muzzle heavy (and no, that isn't subjective...), etc...

You extoll the virtures of a gun that is no where near the caliber of the guns they claim as peers. When was the last time you heard a browning person say "hey, this is just as nice as a Ruger"?
 

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Well drsfmd, you really need to do your homework before you open your mouth. As far as the ruger "flopping" open, yes, it was designed that way by Bill Ruger. Why dont you take the time to call Ruger and speak to someone who knows about the design of the gun before you shoot your mouth off. I love the fact that it comes open easily, that way I dont have to break it over my leg like many brownings and berettas that I have tried. Also, the loose or rattling rib.....who cares? It doesnt affect the way the gun shoots. The rib on my gun does not rattle or buzz or fall off. If it starts to do any of these things, It will not bother me. The weight issue does not bother me. I bought my Ruger to use as a hunting gun....I could absolutely care less about shooting clays. I've done it before and was bored to death with it. The only time I shoot clays is when I am brushing up on my skills before the season starts. Now, resale value.....again, who friggin cares? I certainly didnt buy my Ruger to turn around and sell it. I plan to keep for as long as I am able to hunt, and then pass it on to my kids or grandkids. Also, you mentioned that you dont see any Rugers at competitions. Did you ever stop and think that maybe it's because Ruger doesnt sponsor any of the events, and having a browning or beretta is more of a "prestige" thing? It wouldnt look good for some hotshot doctor or lawyer to come to the clays range with a lowley old Ruger would it? Anyway, I'm sure I'm not going to change your opinion, so I'm just going to stop now. I will end with this, I bought my Ruger from a gunshop that has been in business for 15 years. He sells Ruger, Browning, Beretta, you name it. When I asked him for his honest opinion on which gun to buy, he said "go with the ruger, and enjoy it, you wont be disapointed." And, so far, he was right.
 

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Jason,

You take this far too personally! :) I *DO* know what I'm talking about... I've been a shooter for 20+ years, and have worked in the business for a while now. *YOU LIKE* your Ruger... good for you! I'm happy you've found a gun that works for you. Regarding your other statements:

JASON WROTE: As far as the ruger "flopping" open, yes, it was designed that way by Bill Ruger. Why dont you take the time to call Ruger and speak to someone who knows about the design of the gun before you shoot your mouth off.

I don't buy that. It's only in the last few years that Ruger has touted their "easy open" system. Why? Because it's a great way to cover a design flaw. Anyone who has a gun that has an actual open assist knows that this isn't what the Ruger has.

JASON WROTE: Also, the loose or rattling rib.....who cares? It doesnt affect the way the gun shoots. The rib on my gun does not rattle or buzz or fall off. If it starts to do any of these things, It will not bother me.

*I* care... and you should too. This is a serious design flaw! As I said before, there are lots of guns on the market that have adjustable ribs, yet you never heard of any of them falling off, rattling, or buzzing!

JASON WROTE: The weight issue does not bother me. I bought my Ruger to use as a hunting gun....I could absolutely care less about shooting clays. I've done it before and was bored to death with it. The only time I shoot clays is when I am brushing up on my skills before the season starts.

Ok, that's you. My comments about weight were in response to ke4yyd, who specifically mentioned that people suggested his gun was too light for skeet... which in my opinion (and the opinion of most skeet shooters) is just too light. Incendentally, "bored to death with it" is usually a euphamism for "I did terribly, and I am unwilling to admit it".

JASON WROTE: Now, resale value.....again, who friggin cares? I certainly didnt buy my Ruger to turn around and sell it. I plan to keep for as long as I am able to hunt, and then pass it on to my kids or grandkids.

You *SHOULD* care! A gun at that price point should be something of an investment, and should hold a reasonable percentage of it's value. The resale value of other guns at that price point is much better than the resale value of the Ruger.

JASON WROTE: Also, you mentioned that you dont see any Rugers at competitions. Did you ever stop and think that maybe it's because Ruger doesnt sponsor any of the events, and having a browning or beretta is more of a "prestige" thing? It wouldnt look good for some hotshot doctor or lawyer to come to the clays range with a lowley old Ruger would it?

Really? It isn't fair to compare a Browning Golden Clays or Beretta 682 Gold E to a RRL... so, lets compare apples to apples here... A basic RRL has an MSRP of $1702. The engraved version has an MSRP of $1902. The Citori White lightning has an MSRP of $1748, the Lightning Grade I has an MSRP of $1903. The Beretta Onyx Pro and White Onyx both have an MSRP of $1875, the next step up would be a Silver Pigeon S, which has an MSRP of $2150. So clearly, it isn't a prestige thing... granted, we rarely actually *PAY* MSRP, but that isn't the point... the price the manufacturer suggests clearly articulates the company they feel they keep. At that price point, Ruger obviously feels that Browning and Beretta are competitors.

As far as events sponsorship... I searched the websites of all three manufacturers - You are right... Ruger doesn't sponsor any clays events... for that matter, neither does Browning. Beretta sponsors 3 events... one in NJ, and two in TX.

"Hotshot Doctors and Lawyers" as you put it, are much more likely to be shooting a Perazzi, Kreighoff, or the like than they are to be shooting a Browning or Beretta.

Subsequently, I stand by my earlier statements. Feel free to try and disprove anything I've said.
 

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Well, lets see. I challenge you to call someone at Ruger, and ask to speak with them about the design of the red label. Bill Ruger was a genius, and has been mentioned in the same breath as john browning many times. He would not let a "flawed" product stay on the market. I don't believe that he would even introduce a flawed product into the market. Also, forget the fact that the ruger opens easily, or "flops" open as you call it. It still locks up tight, So what difference does it make how easlit it opens. I have a friend who has a red label that is about 12 years old. He regularly shoots clays, and hunts quite frequently as well. He told me that he probably has 15-20,000 rounds through his gun. He has never had a problem with the gun, except for a broken firing pin. I have held and shot his gun. It still locks up as tight as the day he bought it. So I ask you, how could this possibly be a design flaw? It may be a design feature that you don't care for, and thats fine, but it is hardly a flaw. As for the rib, I could care less if it buzzes or rattles. IT DOES NOT AFFECT THE WAY THE GUN SHOOTS! If the rib ever falls off, I have absolute confidence that ruger will make things right. Ruger's customer service is top notch, and that is another reason that I purchased the red label to begin with. As for the re-sale value, I don't give a diddly squat what the gun is worth now or 10 years from now. I'm not going to sell it, period! I'm not in the habit of trading or selling guns in order to buy other guns. I like all of the guns that i have, and plan to keep them all. Whenever I see a new gun that I like, I simply save up and buy it. After all, one can never have too many guns. I buy guns to use, and I use them hard! I don't buy them as an investment or because they look pretty sitting in the gun rack. However, each to his own as far as re-sale value. I thought I got a pretty good deal on my red label as i only paid a little over $1,000.00 for it NIB. Suggested retail means nothing. One reason that the suggested retail of the Ruger seems to be in line with the "B" guns, is because the Ruger is still made right here in the good old USA. That alone will drive up the price of the gun, what with the kind of salaries that american workers expect these days. The Brownings are made in Japan and the Berettas in Italy. Nothing wrong with that, I own a benelli also and couldnt be happier with it. Lastly, as far as shooting clays goes, I am not a world champion shooter, but I can hold my own. I just dont see any fun in moving from station to station shooting inanimate objects. Especially when you have shot that particular course a lot, and know before you ever step up to shoot, which direction the target is coming from and where it's going. Actual hunting is so much more unpredictable, and to me more challenging. I just simply dont care for sporting clays. I just think it's a little insane to spend that kind of money on a gun, just to go bust up a piece of clay. But thats just my opinion, if you enjoy clays, thats fine. Variety is the spice of life. I guess all I'm really trying to say is please dont come on here and make it sound like all Rugers are inferior just because you either had a bad experience with one, or just didnt like yours. There are plenty of us who like and enjoy our red labels. I dont go to the browning or beretta board and bash them, so pleases dont bash my ruger. By the way, i own a Citori as well, but it mostly stays in the safe, as the Ruger fits me much better. Sorry if you thought I took your comments personally, but it kinda ticks me off when someone bad mouths something that I happen to like.
 

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I would like to say, besides a lack of knowledge and hunting experience, desfmd has poor taste and tack in his comments. This whole Ruger problem thing is ridiculous. I've owned many shotguns with some little thing I did not like. So what, it's all up to personal preference. Personally I wish you would keep your sarcasm and negativity someplace else.
 

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You guys are too funny... So tell me ILDB, how do you come to the conclusion that I know nothing and don't hunt? Your logic is seriously flawed.

Jason- Twice now you have challenged me to call Ruger to ask them... that may be the stupidest thing I've ever heard - OD COURSE they are going to say the product was designed that way. What part of that doesn't make sense to you? Regarding your friends RRL, 12 years old with 15,000 rounds through it? That's what, about 1,300 rounds a year? I've done that many in a busy week of shooting. That's NOT "a lot of clays" That's one round every other weekend for a year...

If you don't like something I have to say about a product you love, ignore me... but know that I speak the truth.
 

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You may speak the truth about that one red label that you owned, however you do not speak the truth concerning all ruger red labels.I am sorry you had a bad experience with one. I know several people that own red labels and they are all very happy with their guns. You have yet to come up with any proof that there is a flaw in the red labels design, other than the fact that you just dont like the way the gun opens, or the way the rib buzzes. This isnt proof of a design flaw, its one persons opinion. Just because a shotgun is hard to open or tight, doesnt mean its a good design or a better gun. I can name several guns being made in Turkey nowadays that open as hard as any new browning or beretta, however they are being sent back to their manufacturers for a host of problems. Also, you may want to read the book about Bill Ruger, I believe it's called "Ruger, the man and his guns". It has a lot of information regarding the design of various ruger firearms, including the red label. As far as I'm concerned, I will probably never put 10,000 rounds through my Ruger in my entire life. So someone who has put 15-20,000 rounds through one is proof enough for me that the red label is all the gun I will ever need.
 

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The ease to which the RRL opens is a design component,not a flawed design.This is easily confirmed by talking to Ruger and several gunsmiths in my area.
Not all shotguns are designed to impress skeet and sporting clays shooters alone,to assume otherwise is taking a narrow view of shotgunning.
A well taken care of shotgun will fire more shells than most of us can hope to keep track of.(Tom Knapp had one Bennelli that he claims he has run over 480,000 rounds through).
Rugers have a solid following and thats just a reality not a disease.
B guns are just fine,at least I know mine is,and so are Rugers.
Although I would like to know why 8 or 9 Berreta owners want to sell thier guns and another 6 or 7 Browning owners are also selling thiers while only one Ruger owner feels compelled to sell his on the classified section here?Why unload such superior firearms?I usually sell stuff I no longer find usefull.

Finally,its unfortunate but there are those actually enjoy stirring up other people.Its sad but true.
 

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drsfmd, You remind me of an East Coast Democrat. They usely dont know what their talking about either. You may have been shooting for 20 years but I started 70 years ago. I now own 3 Ruger o/u shotguns and have not had a problem with any of them. I notice you don't seem to be bragging about your Gold whatever it is.
One day after shooting trap with my Sporting Clays model, one of the B gun shooters said let me see your gun. After hefting it a litle he said my god that gun is heavy. So how can use say their too light for clays games.?
So you shoot yours and I'll keep mine for my son who wants them when I'm done shooting.
 

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Easy on the Democrats - I'm a southern one and love my two Rugers. Maybe they are better hunters than clay guns. Of course I'm not sure the last time I saw a serious clay shooter with a $1,000 gun, either. So, apples & oranges?

For a general purpose gun, they are on the heavy end. The 30" sporting clays models are the best balanced of the 12 & 20 ga versions. I find the 20 ga sporting clays gun and the 28 ga absolutely outstanding. One is my duck gun; the other is my upland gun.

Things I (repeat, I) like:
My size from the factory- 1.5"/2.5" stock drop, same as Remington pumps and older Brownings
Zero cast from the factory - I'm a lefty
Mechanical triggers - dud on the first shot, just pull the trigger again
Rock solid (despite the groundless though oft repeated rant that it "can't" be good if it opens easily!)
Fabulous service.
For anything near the money, the best 28 ga O/U hunting gun.

I find any doubts about the 12 ga holding up to extensive clays shooting humorous. Serious shooters reload - and shoot 7/8 oz low pressure loads in their 12's most of the time anyway to save their shoulders and concentration (as I do in a Beretta 391).
 

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Like I said before. Mine works fine. Only a schmo pays retail these days.

Here is some of thye stuff I have heard about some of the best shotguns.

Ithaca OOOOO a design flaw forearm rattles and it shoots if you hold the trigger down and pump.

Remington OOOOOO express not as good, pay double buy wingmaster. Its different.

Browning OOOOO Japanese. Not same as old Belgian guns.

Beretta OOOOOO Italian. Always changing design flawed gun. Old Handmade, new machined.

And the list could go on.................
 

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What do you know... I was wrong about something with Ruger - the *DO* sponsor an event... and it looks like a major one at that! I received my new copy of Sporting Clays magazine today, and towards the back there is a full page ad for the "Ruger North American All Around Sproting Clays Championship"!! How many Rugers do you think will be there? Probably a handful... after all, the reps and other employees usually shoot such events.

Dogrobber wrote: Ithaca OOOOO a design flaw forearm rattles and it shoots if you hold the trigger down and pump.

While I have no particular objection to Ithaca, it simply isn't in the same class as the other pieces we've been talking about.

Dogrobber wrote: Remington OOOOOO express not as good, pay double buy wingmaster. Its different.

See Ithaca... same thing applies.

Dogrobber wrote: Browning OOOOO Japanese. Not same as old Belgian guns.

I agree with this statement... but how many do you find saying that a Ruger is better than a Japanese (Miroku) Browning? <listens to pins drop and crickets chirp> That's what I thought.

Dogrobber wrote: Beretta OOOOOO Italian. Always changing design flawed gun. Old Handmade, new machined.

Ummm.... care to clarify? While I don't think Beretta's are perfect, their O/U actions are perhaps the second best design ever brought to market (the best, IMO being the Kreighoff, via Remington). What specific design flaws would you be referring to? And what's so bad about a machined gun? Pretty much the whole industry has gone to CNC machining. Of course the Ruger is still investment cast... maybe the rest of the industry should go in that direction? :)
 

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I was speaking of the various opinions of very fine guns (most of which I own ) that I have heard on the range and here. While opinions are nice, you got to take it with a grain of salt.

I understand gun classes but retail is not what I pay for guns.
Ruger fills a niche. I wont argue the niche is different than B guns or the other high dollar ones. It is not the same niche though.

A person buying a Ruger has different expectations than a higher niche gun. A greatdeal of what i hear about ruger is like what I hear about the other guns I got. Simply not the common experience.

Do guns get out with flaws, sure. I got a old Ithaca near new. Never shot more than a load or two cause when I started shooting it the rear sight fell off. Does this mean its a bad gun and all old Ithacas are bad, nope.

Now is the ruger made different than the others, yep. Ruger made its name being different. Its unreasonable for a Ruger not to be made with the manner Ruger made famous.

I would love to find a handmade and fitted double for sale with a full set of choke tubes for $1000 or so. When I find any good shotgun for a good price I give serious thought to it.

When I bought the Ruger, I checked out the entire stock my dealer had and they have some nice guns. I passed on several Brownings and a used Beretta running around $1500 plus. I passed on a camo Red Label, that was ugly. I passed on several others way out of my mad money range.

As for the gun being loose; till I had several hundred rounds out of it it broke on my knee. It is still tight. I know its not the in gun but I dont care, I like it. Its an American made ( however its built) gun with cut checkering, decent blue, good materiels and full set of choke tubes. Nothings come loose, fell off or broke. What else can I expect for a grand gun (pun intended)?

Now I do own higher niche guns and lower niche ones. I find no problem dragging out a good browning or whatever and pounding the air around various clay birds here in Florida Tropics. But, when i hit the swamp land, I grab a lower niche gun. That is the niche Ruger fills in actuality. Retail is not the way to niche a gun.
 

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I agree with you regarding retail pricing. However, I will point to my earlier post in this thread... MSRP identifies who a manufacturer considers to be their peer and aspirational peers in the market. The Ruger is priced similarly to the Beretta and Browning field grade offerings... and hence I stand by my earlier statements.

As far as being American made... I don't really care. I want the best that I can afford to own. When that's American made, great - I'll buy it every time. When it's foreign, I'll buy that. The cars in my collection are either antique American, Itailian, or German. Most of my guns are antique American, Italian, or German. I don't care where it came from... I want the best I can afford. Ruger doesn't fit that bill, yet they continue to market themselves as though they do. Frankly, if Ruger were to price their guns competitively with Russians and the Turks, I'd buy one as a beater, to use on the days where inclement weather makes me hesitant to take out one of the "good" guns.

I'm still waiting for anyone to disprove my comments earlier in this thread (and saying "Call Ruger and they will tell you" doesn't cut it). If someone would simply admit that Ruger makes an overpriced and inferior product (but I buy it becuase it's American made) when compared to peer and aspirational peer manufacturers, I'd leave this thread.... The alternative is to prove me wrong, which no one seems to be able to do.
 

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I think rugers suggested retail is stupid, so I actually agree with the overpriced (by retail). Inferior is where I have a disagreement. If Rugers posted price was near what they actually sell for life would be better. I think Rugers problem is they have several things they think we are using different than we actually are. The safari rifle line, The shotguns, some of the pistols. They market some of their stuff well. Just not what i call the experienced shooter stuff.
 
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