[bladesmith]

Does anyone reload 12ga brass Magtechs ? If I load black powder there is so much fouling in the chambers and on the receiver of my old SxS's I have trouble opening or closeing the gun after 20 or 30 shots. So I would like to try smokeless. But because of the bigger case area and the use of fiber wads with a glued in over shot card , there's not much resistance, hence lower pressure and a lot of unburnt powder in the barrel . Without any load data for this combination I'm kind of in the dark . Could anyone help? Just keep going up with the powder till it burns clean? Thanks- Paul

 

[ffffg]

(I deleted the brass shell reloading stuff that i gave and put in the link below on my next post) THANKS TO BOB FOR GETTING ME STRAIT.. .. i used federal paper hulls worked best for me dont use a shotcup)... wincheser 209 primer,,, 80 gr 3f goex(volumn),.....12 ga 1/8 inch nitro card......., two 12 ***** wool felt wads with tc (yellow lube in th tube) soaked into the wool with heat... 80 gr equivelent (volumn) shot (ounce and 1/8 aprox)...... ... What your are getting is sqibb loads, that is, they arnt expanding the cases becouse of too low of pressures, poor burn of the powder and blowback comming around the case and entering your breach action.. The federal paper hulls, may be purchased once fired from ballistic products, and you will get about one shot from them before they develope holes in the paper..... Use 12 ga cork to fill out load fit in your press... I may have used one 1/8 inch 12 ga felt wad, and one 1/8 inch thick 12 ga cork, (over powder in that order), to get it to fit.. I used 45- lbs wad pressure on wads.... 2nd time around on the federal hull with black powder, the wad pressure will be about 50 lbs, thats ok ..... If you dont understand any of this pm me with questions and dont just guess.. Black power loading takes some knowledge or guts,, i suggest you stick to knowledge... .. YOur loads are under pressured now, so change one thing at a time and slowly work up pressures until you get a seal.. if you get too high or inconsistent results, or too much powder for 12 gauge guidlines go to federal paper hulls, they are easy to load and get great results.. there are no high pressure warnings with black powder.. So go slow,.. If your now using a load heavier than ive stated above you could be getting high pressures now, as i dont know your load, or if powder residue is either going around case or thru the primer... you should be able to look at case and see if powder blowback is going arround case or thru primer-- Ask questions, please.. Im not familiar with loading brass shotgun cases so be carfull, but the load above is well within limits-- if powder is compressed and the rest of the load in the case is not loose.... dave..

 

[BobK]

For BRASS shells, try going to 11-gauge wads for a better fit! For paper shells, 12 gauge wads work fine, but the larger inside diameter of the brass shells needs a LARGER wad for a good tight fit!

(The wads are available at low cost from Circle-Fly.)

BobK

 

[ffffg]

I searched and found an old article on loading brass shells, It looks like im off base (quite abit) there is alot more to loading the darn things than i realized.. this article deals with the tappered cases of the brass, and how before they are blown out that they may need 12 ***** nitro cards, then 11 ***** nitro cards and fiber wads after.. It looks like the 11 gauge card can be a little big in some situations and it needs some care in seating properly becouse of the tapered cases.. its easier to read the second set of links.(tiff format).. http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html dave

 

[bladesmith]

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I should have said something about myself first. I've been shooting black powder since 1970, mostly in muzzleloaders for hunting and targert shooting. Also have been reloading nitro since 1975. In Federal hulls I use 92grs of ff and 1oz of shot. Fiber wads with BP and plastic wads with Pyrodex [ BP will melt plastic wads leaving a mess in the barrel ] . And no, the primers aren't blown or leaking: it's blow by the mouth of the shell because it's not tight in the chamber. You're right 3f, the case isn't expanding because of low pressure. That's why I want to try smokeless loads . The problem is there's no data for smokeless in brass shells. I'm getting punk loads because I think of three things: bigger case volume, fiber wads, and a glued in overshot card [ no crimp means less resistance ] . What I was wondering is if anyone has any old load data for brass shells? Thanks for any help - Paul

 

[ffffg]

I cant remember if the link i provided had brass shell smokeless powder loads or not.. You probably should look there again.. If not you can call ballistic products, they have literature on almost all kinds of shotshell loading.. They have books, broshures, and if your a customer they will send you a copy of some data that they have holed up somewhere.. Ill bet he has it but you may have to buy the 11 ga nitro cards wads and over shot cards from him to get the data that is in his files.... If he has a book on it you will have to purchase that... Your going to have a bigger problem with smokeless from what i read in the link.. You will probably get blowby without a nitro card as pressures will be higher blowing thru the fiber wad.. (I had this problem with 3f in muzzeloaders). .. The nitro card is tricky to fit in the tapered brass case according to the articles in the link i provided.. . But all these things can be worked out with time and patience.. Dave

 

[BobK]

IMHO, Ballistic Products will rip you off. That's why I use Circle-Fly for wads.

Funny about "blow-by", etc. and all the problems mentioned, but all shot shells were loaded with overpowder, cushion and overshot wads until the new Plastic one-piece wads came along in about the mid 1960s. I took a LOT of game with the old shells!

When I was loading black powder in brass shells a few years back, the cases that I had were not tapered that I could tell. They were of pretty uniform thickness. They also used either rifle or pistol primers, I don't recall which, as it was a long time ago.

But I never loaded smokeless powder in them, so can't help you there. I know what I would do if I did, but since I haven't tried it, I won't mention it.

BobK

 

[jugchoke]

I'm getting punk loads because I think of three things: bigger case volume, fiber wads, and a glued in overshot card [ no crimp means less resistance ] .

None of the above should be of any consequence in black powder loads. Think muzzle loader, none make any difference, and the over shot card is not even "glued in". Resistance, (built into the shell), is not needed for black powder, other than enough "pay load", weight of shot.

Brass cases are a PIA! What you are experiencing is blow-by around the wad column, and back around the brass case mouth. You need larger diameter wads, (especially the nitro card), and/or more, thicker or softer, wad columns. The softer or thicker material will allow the wad to swell out to the chamber walls, for a better seal. You are using a nitro card, under all this, right?

In my modern, chrome plated muzzle loader barrels, I use only the nitro card. A tight fitting one. (In some instances where I did not have tight enough fitting wads, I will cut them in half or more sections and load them separately, just to insure that they will "squash" out and give a better seal.) In some of the old antiques, one can not get away with such, since the "chamber" area is burned or corroded to a larger diameter, and one must then use fiber wads to get the wad column built up above the damaged area.

The troubles with brass cases are that once you get them swelled up enough to "seal" in the chamber, you are only a shot or two away from having to resize them and starting over again. They also "work harden" at that point, and will be even worse the next go around. (And I don't want to keep on shooting hulls swelled up enough that they need to be "levered" into the gun chamber! Not good for a cherished gun, to put the hinge through that wear and tear!) Plus one has to clean brass hulls, immediately after shooting, just like the gun, or you will have a corrosion problem.

I find the paper hulls a much better deal, but the Federal papers do leak, hot, corrosive gases back through the primers and into the guns action through the firing pin holes. Some one on here has said that they had good luck, sealing them with finger nail polish. I have not loaded any since to try that "fix" out.

I prefer Mikes Wads, over the old Circle Fly ones, but have not used any CFs since maybe a couple of owners, back. They might have improved them since I last bought any.

I do occasionally use plastic shot cups, (I have some cases of old Federals, shot cup only, designed to be used over card/fiber wads), with out too much problem in BP loads. (They are not legal in competition shooting), but do tighten patterns up, for hunting.

As to the residue, BP or plastic, left in the bores, use a spray of moose milk about every 5 or so shots. That will allow one to shoot all day, and never clean until you are done shooting. (Moose milk: Water soluble oil, water and a dash of dish soap. Use windshield washer fluid instead of water in the winter time.) Just spray down the open breech and let it run out the muzzles. Virtually all the crap will exit the muzzle with the next shot. Even works with plastic hulls, used with fiber wad columns. Just don't reload those plastic hulls the second time. Toss 'em.

Yes, BobK, components can be found much cheaper than Ballistic Products!

Clyde

 

[BobK]

GOOD ADVICE, Jugchoke... When I started using plastic hulls (still kept with the old traditional wadding) I never looked back at the brass.

BobK

 

[bladesmith]

I don't have punk loads with BP- just with the nitro. The Magtechs aren't tappered except the last 3/4" , or so. I use Circlefly wads [ because the same thing from Balistic Products are the same except they cost more ] . In the Magtechs I'm useing 10ga nitro cards, 11ga cushion and 10ga over shot cards. This combination gives a nice BP load except for the dirty chambers. When I've tried the same wad combination for smokeless I get weak loads. Have even gone up 10% with the powder with no luck. Smokeless needs a certain amount of resistance from the wad and the crimp to get a good burn and PSI. I don't believe the glued in O.S. card is giving me that. The load has no recoil so to speak, and the barrels have a lot of unburnt powder indicating a very low pressure. I think the answer I'm looking for can't be found because no one , or powder co. , has data for our newer smokeless powders used in a brass hull with fiber wads. Maybe I should just forget about smokeless in a brass shell. I would like to thank everyone for their input- thanks - Paul

 

[jugchoke]

OK, now that makes sense!

What powder and primers are you using? A faster powder and maybe a hotter, mag primer might do the trick.

But then you are getting into uncharted waters, as you said.

I think you could safely use right up to, (and likely past), the highest published loads, with the fiber wads, safely, but then you have to use the pistol or rifle primers in those brass cases. Throws another light on it. Plus, not very economical!

Clyde

 

[bladesmith]

you're right, they do take the large pistol primer. I have 100 Magtechs that I drilled out to take shotgun primers. Bad mistake, the primer sticks up in the shell past the brass and gets so much fouling deposits it takes a hammer and punch to get them out. Funny thing, some of the primers seperated and the center looks just like a pistol primer. Look at your shotgun primers, they're two pieces. Guess I could go up in powder till I get a clean burn. Is there any info anywhere that gives powder burn rates - something that says what's fast to slow ? Paul

 

[jugchoke]

Just Google "Powder burn rate".

I use a fast powder for target loads, and my light weight shot charges in 12 gage. Nitro 100

I have loaded plastic hulls with card and fiber wads. When using exactly the same recipe, subbing only the plastic wad with the card/fiber, the load is not a great deal of difference. About 80 or 100 FPS by the cronograph, slower using the old style wads.

But of course those plastic hulls are crimped as usual.

Clyde

 

[Spacegold]

I have acquired a number of Alcan brass shells and wish to begin reloading them. Since they are designed to receive the old Rem/Peters #57 primer, they will have to be drilled/reamed out for 209s. Has anyone here performed this little remodel? If so, I would appreciate any comments you think are worthwhile concerning your method and results.

 

[bladesmith]

I have but don't recomend it- as I said earlier the primer [ on magtechs ] sticks up past the brass and receives the burnt powder fouling. You'll need a hammer and punch to get them out. If the base of the Alcans are thicker- as thick as the primer is tall- maybe you wouldn't have that problem. I believe I used a 15/64 drill- then used a bigger drill and twisted it by hand to put a countersink in for the shell to fit flush.
Jugchoke- thanks for saying Nitro 100 - I have two 25# kegs of it for my normal 12ga target loads. I'm almost out of Solo 1000 and will be swiching to it shortly. At one time the Solo or Nitro was 265$ for a 25# keg- no more. So I stocked up when I could. With me, my wife, daughter and granddaughter all shooting three times a week from my reloads, I run out of supplies pretty fast. Maybe I'll try a stronger load with the Nitro till there's a clean burn in the barrel. Paul

 

[D L Marcum]

Another somewhat overlooked powder would be Alliants Bullseye. It also has Shotgun applications, and is shown as just slightly slower than Nitro 100 in the burning rate charts.

Lymans #4 shows loads using Bullseye in AA 12 ga. cases and 7/8 oz. shot, developing pressures in the 6,900 to 8,300 PSI range.

This might work well in BP cartridge loadings.

DLM

 

[Spacegold]

Thanks, Bladesmith. The Alcans, being originally designed for battery cup primers, have a thick enough base to contain them and keep them from swelling. That is probably a part of the problem with the Mag-Techs. I have seen old WRA and UMCs that were drilled out for 209s, and they probably have the same problem. The Alcans already have a recess for the battery cup flange, but I am not certain whether or not it is big enough for the 209s.

 

[Camelot]

Blade - I reload Magtech brass hulls and can offer a few pointers. Yes the large pistol primers are a pain to seat and remove but they should stick out past the base. I had that problem until I took a large pistol primer pocket reamer (for military crimped brass) and reamed the pocket before seating the primer. Primers sit flush now.

Also - I use 11 gauge nitro and felt wads and a 10 gauge overshot card. They all fit snug - I then seal the overshot card with a bit of hotglue. No problems so far.

On a slightly different note I'm looking for a source for a OO buckshot mold.

 

[bladesmith]

Camalot, I've set up a Mec 650 to load Magtechs , so the prime and deprime is no problem. I don't like an 11ga nitro card in Magtechs because I don't believe they're tight enough. I've talked to Craig from Circlefly about this who thinks 11ga nitro wads are tight enough. To each his own, I'm just going from 35yrs of shooting muzzleloaders. With them, tighter than tight is better, as long as it can be loaded without too much trouble. Useing the 650 makes it easy to load, so I go with the tighter 10ga nitro card. With an 11ga nitro card I can push it down with only slight finger pressure, and that's not tight enough for my taste. I don't believe it seals good enough. I use the 11ga filler wad because I have 2000 and feel the nitro card is doing the sealing. I also use the thin O.S. card, have tried his thicker O.S. card because it's claimed you don't need to worry about them coming loose. I get a big hole in the center of the pattern useing them. Thanks for the tip on useing a glue gun to glue the O.S. card in- I'll try it.

 

[Spacegold]

I load Magtech 20 ga. and use old Alcan wads for all-brass shells. Since I want to make my supply of these last, I put a 1/4" standard twenty gauge wad on top of the overpowder wad and follow that with a 3/8" all brass fiber wad. I can push the all brass wad down with my thumb, but it is pretty tight. Under load of firing I am pretty sure the fiber wads flatten and expand in diameter to tighten up. I am using 7/8" oz. of #9, 16 gr. Red Dot, and a large pistol primer that fits fine, though it is stiff going in. I close the top with a bead of Elmer's around the perimeter of the OS wad, which also works fine.

Forgot to mention that breaking the edge of the primer pocket with a drill bit held in the hand made the ease of starting the primers much better. Before I did that I got several cocked primers that I had to fire unloaded.