Shotgun Forum banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,416 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im looking at buying a new base shotgun to modify into a tactical shotgun. Is there any way to justify purchasing either of these over the other? Would the best deal for either be the way to go? Whats the plusses or minuses for both, as I have never owned either. Thanks for any help,

Paul

sanfrdnsun
Unregistered User
(4/27/03 4:05:30 am)
66.191.174.6
| Edit | Del add
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I have been looking at different stocks. I believe I'm gonna go with the pistol grip with butt stock. Ive read on the forums about Advance Technology, but what about Choate or Speedfeed? Im looking at spending around 500$ total for gun and modifications. So any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again,

Paul

Guardian
Tactical Shooting Moderator
Posts: 216
(4/28/03 12:33:05 am)
65.31.22.129
| Edit | Del Remington and Mossberg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul,

The shotgun part is a tough call for me. I have always been a fan of Mossberg, I have shot them, in both a tactical setup, and in a sport/hunting setup. They are reliable, well built shotguns. Being a pump, they can handle low recoil shells, without jamming as a result of the low recoil. The 500 has been use by military units for years. You will be able to find a host of aftermarket parts for it.

The only bad thing I can see with the Mossberg is the recoil. I have heard that the Mossberg has the hardest recoil of any Tactical Shotgun around.

The Remington 870 is a nice shotgun as well. A good friend of mine has one for home defense. He complains of the recoil, but I have heard that the 870 kicks less than a Mossberg 500. The 870 also has quite a few different add-ons. They might be a little less reliable than the Mossberg, but I haven't ever seen hard evidence one way or the other.

On the subject of the stocks, I have never worked with anything but Advanced Technology. I cannot give anysolid recommendations to any of the others, but I would imagine that both are fine.

"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective"
--Ted Nugent
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
I love my Rem 870 home defense/tactical setup. As far as stocks go, check out the Speedfeed stocks, they are quality. Mine has the pistol grip+buttstock. Feel, finish, function on the 870 is great and it eats anything that I want to put down the tube.
 
G

·
I have 2 870s a moss 500 and a moss 590. I prefer the mossbergs over the 870 for a tactical shotgun. they are easier to use with your shooting hand everything is within reach.the 590s come with an added bonus a bayo lug , they take m16 bayos my 590 new was only 225 tax included but it only came with an 8 shot extension.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
i would go with a winchester 1300 i know its not what u asked byt it has a great action plus u can get an extensiton and a host of other parts. i have a winchester 120 (older one don't make anymore) 8-shot extenstion, 5 shots on the butt and a sling, im in the process of getting a side saddle too.
 
G

·
Between the two, the Mossberg 590 is the decisively superior gun.
Unlike the 870, Mossberg 590s have passed the US Mil-spec torture test (the only pump shotguns to have done so). The 870 uses a heavy steel receiver, while the 590 uses a lighter aluminum receiver (yet is clearly strong enough to stand up to harsh use).
As for recoil, the 590 probably does kick more than the 870, but I can assure you that the recoil is nothing to complain about, even with magnum slugs.
The shell lifter on the 590 stays in the up position, unlike the 870's, which stays in the down position. This means that unlike with the 870, you can load the 590's magazine without any fear of having your thumb painfully stuck.
The 590 uses an ambidextrous tang safety, truly an oustanding, superior design. The 870, by contrast, uses a cross-bolt safety. The tang safety is more instinctive and natural to use, and can be operated by ways with your thumb, while your trigger finger remains ready to pull the trigger. The 870's cross-bolt safety requires operation with your trigger finge.
The Remington 870's slide release is found on the left side of the triggerguard, to the front. The Mossberg 590's slide release is found to the rear of the triggerguard, to the right, making it much easier to access than the 870's.
Finally, I think we should all keep in mind that Remington is anti-gun rights. Take a look at their 870 Express lately? According to their own website: "Note: The Model 870™ Express® is intended for personal use and will not accept law enforcement accessories." What kind of message are they sending to us shooters? Is this politically correct company really the kind of outfit you want to be supporting your hard-earned money? Mossberg, on the other hand, clearly has no problem being politically incorrect, to the point of incorporating bayonet lugs into their 20"bbl 590A1 and 590 guns, and making them available to private citizens and public users alike.
If you are open to other guns, I would recommend you go all the way and get a 6-shot 590A1. The problem with the 9-shot 590s and 590A1s is that due to the bayonet lug, they cannot accept Surefire replacement forearms (with the exception of the discontinued and obsolete 623A01). Furthermore, although you are losing ammunition capacity, the 6-shot 590A1s are much handier, with their 18.5" barrels. 5+1 is enough for a 12-gauge home defense gun, IMHO.
A Benelli M1 Tactical would also not be a bad choice, although I'd urge caution before making that purchase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Just so you know, the 870 did withstand the US Mil-Spec "torture test" the Military just didn't accept it because it was more expensive. I would say the 870 is even more rugged because of its steel receiver and the added weight can be a bonus by dampening felt recoil. Having a bit of weight in your shotgun also helps steady your aim too. Besides, your not carrying the gun upland bird hunting or on patrol. As for the placement of the safety and slide release, I think it comes down to personal preference of what feels easiest to you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
Guest: You made a pretty interesting and seemingly well thought out statement until you said:

"Finally, I think we should all keep in mind that Remington is anti-gun rights. Take a look at their 870 Express lately? According to their own website: "Note: The Model 870™ Express® is intended for personal use and will not accept law enforcement accessories.""

Now let me see if I understand this..Remington is anti-gun rights. That means, at least to me, that corporate Remington is AGAINST THE RIGHT TO OWN GUNS!! Last time I looked, the sale of guns by Remington accounted for about 78% of their revenue. I guess they are shooting (no pun) for zero revenue from guns--to say nothing of ammo. They really want to be a clothing manufacturer!

This is not a contridiction with them being "ANTI-GUN" now is it?

And that is based on YOUR opinion than any gun manufacturer that makes a guns that doesn't accept law enforcement accessories is ANTI-GUN. What trash!

Guess that makes Browning, Weatherby and on and on and on all "ANTI GUN"! To my knowledge they do not make guns that accept law enforcement accessories. So, if a gun does not make guns that accept law enforcement accessories that makes them ANTI-GUN. Brilliant!!

Guest--you just lost ALL OF YOUR CREDABILITY.

And then along comes Sonde330 and disputes your claim that Mossberg (IMHO a very fine gun) is the ONLY one to pass the Mil Spec Test!

At this point, who's statement of 'fact' or 'opinon' am I to believe.

Finally, you close with the statement:

"A Benelli M1 Tactical would also not be a bad choice, although I'd urge caution before making that purchase."

Enough said, I will leave it along.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Handle them both and then get whichever one you subjectively like more. They're both good shotguns. Neither has any truly significant (to me) advantage or disadvantage. It's like chocolate and vanilla: they're different, but they're both good.

[rant] Off topic: it irks me that Remington has decided which shotguns are "OK" for Joe Everyman to own (i.e. the ones with the magazine tube dimples that Remington added to prevent the attachment of magazine extensions). Gosh, thanks, Big Brother Remington for protecting me from myself or society from me (insulting no matter how you look at it). Of course, they'll be happy to sell me one without the dimples (the "Police" line) for more $. Wankers. Oh well, if I don't like their attitude, I can buy from someone else. [/rant]
 
G

·
JMCCOYB, your dry, unfriendly, mocking, and childish wit is duly noted and appreciated . . .

One does not need to completely against the gun right to own guns to be anti-gun rights. Anyone who takes the 2nd amendment with more than just a grain of salt would agree that INTENTIONALLY designing your gun to prevent end-users from extending the magazine (not to mention installing 6-round sidesaddles, and then refusing to sell shortened slides except to owners of the "police" variant of the gun) qualifies as being anti-gun (in the abscence of legislation requiring such a design, at least). To save time, I will refer you to Justin Huang's page (http://members.tripod.com/~jth8260/870.html) on this matter, he goes into it in great detail. Other shotgun makers such as Browning may not originally design their guns with the intent of optimizing them for social purposes, but they will not go out of their way to stop you from doing so yourself like Remington (i.e. putting dimples on the magazine tube). Just because the manufacturer's gun comes out the box without a magazine tube flush with the muzzle does not make the manufacturer anti-gun (some people might actually prefer a shorter mag for handiness purposes), but when that manufacturers decides you should have no choice in the matter . . .
As for the mil-spec thing, it wasn't so much my claim, it's Mossberg's claim: "Before there was light-kicking "tactical" buckshot, the U.S. Armed Services established Mil-Spec 3443E, a brutal and unforgiving torture test with 3,000 rounds of full power 12 gauge buckshot. Only one pump action shotgun was heavy duty enough to pass. Mossberg." If it is indeed true that Mossberg is making a false claim, then I stand corrected, although some documention thrown my way of the 870 passing would be greatly appreciated.
And the Benelli M1 is a good gun, I simply urged caution it buying it because one may prefer a 590A1 instead because of its advantages over the M1. A 590A1 is easier to load, and has superior ghost ring sights out of the box (the 590A1 and M1 have numerous advantages and disadvantages over each other to make either a good choice. With the 590A1 and 870, on the other hand, it's pretty much overwhelmingly in favor of the Mossberg). I have never regretted buying an M1, but some people may dislike the M1's difficult loading process so much as to warrant passing on that gun entirely. On the other hand, some people (such as myself) would find that an acceptable tradeoff for the M1's good traits and still make the purchase, which is why I recommend the gun, but adivse the potential buyer to excercise caution and good judgement in his or her purchase.
 
G

·
Sorry, that 2nd sentence should be "One does not need to COMPETELY against the right to own guns to be anti-gun rights."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
"One does not need to COMPETELY against the right to own guns to be anti-gun rights."

Remington Arms Company is ANTI-GUN RIGHTS!

Just what kind of twisted thoughtless logic is this? Absolutely unbelivable!

As to your statement--

"Anyone who takes the 2nd amendment with more than just a grain of salt would agree that INTENTIONALLY designing your gun to prevent end-users from extending the magazine (not to mention installing 6-round sidesaddles, and then refusing to sell shortened slides except to owners of the "police" variant of the gun) qualifies as being anti-gun (in the abscence of legislation requiring such a design, at least)."


So, if I understand you right, if Remington choses to not make THEIR guns the way YOU want them to, that makes them ANTI-GUN RIGHTS! Why don't you call Weatherby, Browning, Ruger, and so on as being ANTI GUN RIGHTS. To my knowledge, they don't make a shotgun that even remotely lends itself to so called "SOCIAL WORK" whatever that is--so they would qualify, right? (your words, not mine--seems to me you've been going to too many movies).

Please, if you are able, explain to me what your definition of GUN RIGHTS is!

You also imply that Remington Arms is against the 2nd amendment--that is also some more of twisted sick logic. I'm more than absolutely positive that Remington Arms company is as strong a supporter of the 2nd Amendment as anyone in the US. Why? If it weren't for the 2nd Amendment, THEY WOULD NOT BE IN BUSINESS! But never mind that, they don't make guns exactly the want YOU want.

Therefore they are not only ANTI-GUN RIGHTS they think and support the principle of the 2nd Amendment is rubish!

This is twisted sick logic and shows a distinct ability to analyze cause and relationships. If Remington doesn't happen to make guns exactly to your specs, why don't you just take your dime and go down the street to the next guy--instead of calling them unsupported illlogical names (some would call THAT childish).

Just so we don't confuse the issue here, I own both Remingtons and a Mossberg, both IMHO very good guns!
 
G

·
Still not quite finished with the name-calling and aggressive feelings, eh JMCCOYB? ;-)

As for my usage of the term "social", I take it you are not a reader of Jeff Cooper's writings. "Social", in this context, would mean "anti-personnel", "tactical", etc.

It's not that the given gun has a small magazine that bothers me, but the fact that Remington SPECIFICALLY added the dimples to the magazine tube to prevent YOU from extending the magazine. This serves absolutely NO purpose except to PREVENT private citizens such as myself and yourself from making our guns more suitable for defensive purposes (this sort of thing is something which the other companies you mentioned do not do), something the likes of Clinton, Feinstein, Boxer, Kennedy, and Schumer would support.

I think I've located the source of our misunderstandings. I just have one question for you, your much appreciated and anticipated answer should clear this up: just how far do you support RKBA (you asked me what my definition was gun rights is, it's the same as yours, I just suspect we differ in how far we believe it should extend)? Do you agree with the ban on "assault weapons" (i.e. guns that don't look politically correct) and high-capacity magazines?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
182 Posts
JMCCOYB AND Guest:

I'm going to have to step in here a little bit. First, I would ask that both of you calm down, as I do not want to have to start editing and censoring posts to keep the shotgunworld Tactical Forum part of "the Friendliest Shooting Forum on the Net"

You both have valid points, but the name calling, mocking, and instigating aggression does need to stop.

Second, the 870 is a Mil-Spec shotgun. It DID pass the Mil-spec tests. I don't have the technical documentation on this, but I assure you, it is the truth. I do believe that the Winchester 1300 ALSO passed, which is why according to the Federation of American Scientists (associated with the DoD, I believe) you will find the Winchester 1300, the Remington 870, AND the Mossberg 590 in service with the United States Military today.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/12-gauge.htm

As to if Remington is "anti-gun rights" or not....no they are not anit-gun rights. They are spineless. Remington (like every other company) wants to make money. They hold quite a few contracts with Law Enforcement agencies for 870 LE models. Some Anti-Gun Politician more than likely went to the board members at Remington and said "Every Law Enforcement Agency in the U.S. will pull their contracts if you don't start making certain modifications to your firearms." That's what almost happened to Colt. Accually, if you think about it, that happened to EVERY Firearm manufacturer in 1927(might have been 28) when the National Firearms Act passed. Auto Ordnance would have gone under had it not been for Gov't Contracts in the late 20's through the late 40's. (A.O. Manufacturers the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun)http://www.auto-ordnance.com

Remington wants money. If civilians bought over 100,000 870 wingmasters per year SPECIFICALLY to make Home Defense guns out of them, those modifications would not have been made.

Both the Mossberg 590 and the Remington 870 are great guns for Home Defense....Personally I like the Mossberg. That's just me. I like the feel, and I love the mule like kick. That is just my opinion. Everyone is going to have a different opinion, best way to decide is to test them and make the call.

Dirk/Guardian
 
G

·
I have shot both Moss and 870 in military as well as civilian applications, like them both, both are very different in feel, both are mil-spec. I own an 870 Mag Marine and it is truly state-of-the-art. This is about Chevys and Fords, guys...both drive, both take gas and either will do the job, whatever job you are seeking.....Hey, this is a very informative medium for me..and hopefully for each of you... :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
danceswithshotgun said:
I have a Moss and I like it. The one thing to remember is that you can't put an extended magazine tube on a mossberg. To me that mag extension makes a tactical shotgun.
No offense, but doesn't the Mossberg 590 already come with a 8/9 round tube under the barrel? I've seen mossberg 500's with 5 shot tubes... but I thought the 590 came factory with the long tube magazine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
I'd like to step in here and add something to guardian's previous statements... all in agreement with him! :D

One of the best military shotguns... and most underated military shotguns at that was the Ithica M37, then winchester 97, which still saw use as late as the 1990's if you believe the war correspondent pics of our troops overseas.... and the remingtons were in use as well... from Veitnam onwards.

All are fine guns... but I think we got off track. The original thread was a fellow asking which was better to "hot rod", i.e. he wants to buy a shotgun, and put a bunch of accessories on it.

This being said.. My opinion is he would be best served by buying a 590, as it already comes from the factory pretty much "tactical" as is... and is easily added onto via the aftermarket companies.

The 870, although a FINE gun... was designed to be a hunting arm first... and was later adapted with different wood, sights, and finish to the police market & military.

Remington, like S&W a few years ago, is wussing out of the "tactical" market.... and trying to get back to the "hunting" side of things... thus they have a "police" line of guns.

Mossberg took a different approach... and chose to offer civilian versions of their tactical wares.

Both are free to do as they wish.... its their company! Its also a free country. Vote with your dollars... and support companies made up of like minded individuals. Like me... I wont buy a Colt... because Colt sold out years ago... and is currently in over priced "ego" land now... with basic hand guns running $1200+ because it says "colt" on it. They did this in anticipation of their super duper electronic smart gun.. which they took liberal government tax money to develope during clinton gore years... and still haven't produced.

As for browning? they still make & market the Hi power... need I say more?

Weatherby has always been a sporting arms company... and we'll never see a weatherby AR-15 clone.

Businesses choose to head in directions they feel good about. It isn't "anti".. its just business. Like when K-Mart decided to side with the liberal left wing... and stop selling hand gun ammo & shooting magazines... and hire rosie as their spokesperson. They forgot who was their main customer, i.e. blue collar rural midwest america.... in favor of hob knobbing with the liberal elite... and now they're just about out of business.

Vote with your dollars!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
I have a Moss and I like it. The one thing to remember is that you can't put an extended magazine tube on a mossberg. To me that mag extension makes a tactical shotgun.
You don't need an extention on the 9-shot 590. The magazine tube is already maxed out. In fact, an equivalent length tube on an 870 would hold one round less. I recommend the 590.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top