Shotgun Forum banner
1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I spent 8 days at the Grand this year and among other things, it is a great place to ask the appropriate people and get answers to some of the rumors floating around. This year I decided to find out what is going on (for sure) with the distribution of Remington shotgun ammo. Gamalliels runs the shell house at the Grand. I asked them if they could get Remington Shotgun ammo. They told me that they had a limited supply of STS and Nitro and did not believe Remington would accept orders from them for any more. They were not sure if they could get more Gun Clubs or the new American Clay and Field. They did have both of these for sale at the Grand.

I talked with Remington. They said "Walmart made us a deal we could not refuse, Walmart has agreed to take ALL of the STS and Nitro ammo we produce. No one else will be distributing it. This does not effect Am Clay and Field or Gun Clubs." Just my personal observation but in fact, they could refuse. They chose not to. The guy I talked to said the decision was made well above his level and he did not necessarily agree with it. I pointed out the the booklet for the Grand this year (and in past years) has a two page advertisement featuring Harlan Campbell endorsing STS and Nitro. I asked what Harlan was going to shoot at the Grand next year. The guy seemed stunned and said STS and Nitro, why not? I then asked where Harlan was going to buy them and he said at the shell house like everyone else. I pointed out that the shell house would not have them, you just told me that. He then said, well, Harlan could go into Sparta and get them at Walmart like everyone else. I told him that will not work, people cannot go into Sparta and buy shells unless they live in Illinois or a contiguous state, I know, I tried last year. It is a state law. He said he was unaware of that. I suggested that he call whomever in the company that made this decision and mention this law to him. We all know Walmart does not sell flats, just boxes. Sooo, Harlan Campbell, and hundreds of other trap shooters are going to go to their local Walmart and load up 104 individual boxes (to shoot 2600 targets) of shells and haul them up to the cashier, then haul all these loose boxes to the Grand from their home state where they CAN purchase them. Yes, I know, Remington supplies shells to Harlan. But, there are a whole lot of people that actually buy their own ammo and they will be buying something besides Remington.

I did ask about the differences between Gun Club, the new Clay and Field, and STS. I was told that other than steel vs brass heads, the most significant difference was 2% (Gun Club), 4% (Am C&F), or 6% (STS Nitro) antimony shot. The dimensions of the case are the same and they should all reload the same.

All and all it is quite amazing. STS and Nitros are used by clay target shooters, who else? Clay target shooters buy large quantities of ammo. They buy flats, often several. Sooo, Remington decided to exclusively distribute their top of the line clay target loads via a company that is not set up to sell flats. And, their top of the line clay target ammo will not be available for sale at the largest clay target competition in the world. Wow- what a company.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,824 Posts
albatros,

Thank you for posting the facts. What an idiotic business move on Remington's part.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,074 Posts
Walmarts where I live sell ammo by the flat - not STS (Estates), so maybe that is a start.

Guess it might help Winchester out then......................
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,655 Posts
Assuming all this actually comes about, I can't see the logic behind Remington's selling all their production to Wal-Mart at what will undoubtedly be a lower margin, compounded by the fact that very few Wal-Mart associates know anything about ammunition and the inventories in the stores in my area wouldn't supply more than 1-2 serious shooters.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,464 Posts
We all know Walmart does not sell flats, just boxes.
Albatros - I have no clue about the Remington marketing thing. But, apparently, you haven't been to the Sparta Walmart. They do sell shells by the flat and guys wheel them out by the cart full during the Grand. I know one group of shooters who stopped by Walmart on their way home and put 40 flats in a utility trailer because they could get the Federal promo loads $12 a flat cheaper than anything they can buy near home.

 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,014 Posts
Tal/IL said:
We all know Walmart does not sell flats, just boxes.
Albatros - I have no clue about the Remington marketing thing. But, apparently, you haven't been to the Sparta Walmart. They do sell shells by the flat and guys wheel them out by the cart full during the Grand.
Is this true?
people cannot go into Sparta and buy shells unless they live in Illinois or a contiguous state
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,091 Posts
I am ssure it is a very lucrative move by Remington. They can ship shells to a handful of WalMart distribution centers by rail; boxcars full. This, compared to shipping to dozens of small wholesalers scattered all over by common carrier truck. The premium shell are a small fraction of their ammo production and they figure that those relatively few people who buy them will trudge to Walmart to get them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,987 Posts
People that don't live in IL (and have FOID) or a contiguous state MUST purchase a non-resident hunting license in IL to be allowed to purchase ammunition anywhere other than at the event. So someone from say Florida can buy ammo AT the shoot (directly on club property), but the cannot buy ammo at Walmart unless they fork over $35.75 for a 5 day NR license, or $57.75 for a 1 year NR license.

Basically just a shakedown for money.

Probably not the end of the world if you're shooting the entire Grand and buying 8-10 flats to do so, but it is going to be a big barrier to entry if you only need to buy a flat or two (or just want to pick up a couple extra boxes of shells when you're out getting groceries during the shoot).
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,014 Posts
Skeet_Man said:
People that don't live in Sparta (and have FOID) or a contiguous state MUST purchase a non-resident hunting license in IL to be allowed to purchase ammunition anywhere other than at the event. So someone from say Florida can buy ammo AT the shoot (directly on club property), but the cannot buy ammo at Walmart unless they fork over $35.75 for a 5 day NR license, or $57.75 for a 1 year NR license.

Basically just a shakedown for money.
That may be what what's being said locally at Sparta but that's not what I get out of reading the ultra confusing Illinois Criminal Code......

One has to go through several sections of the state code, but basically non-residents are exempt from FOID requirements to buy ammo, and nowhere have I seen the code require a hunting license in lieu of an FOID

What a screwed up mess of a state.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I HAVE been to the Walmart in Sparta during the Grand. I was there in 2013 when I visited the Grand but did not shoot. ( I was there many times when I worked in the area, years earlier.) Indeed: stacks and stacks of flats- guite impressive. Never seen anything like that in ANY OTHER Walmart. I went back to the Sparta Walmart in 2014 when I did shoot. Same big display, lots fewer customers. They refused to sell me shells because I was not a resident of Illinois or a contiguous state. If you do not live in Illinois ir a contiguous states you cannot buy ammo in Illionois anywhere else but at the WSRC. They will not have STS or Nitro next year according to Remington and the company that runs the shell house. Yeah, I know I can shell out $50+ for a non-resident hunting license and then buy ammo. Talk about a stupid illogical law- what does that accomplish? I refuse to submit to blackmail.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,014 Posts
albatros said:
If you do not live in Illinois ir a contiguous states you cannot buy ammo in Illionois anywhere else but at the WSRC. Talk about a stupid illogical law- what does that accomplish? I refuse to submit to blackmail.
I'd like to see an actual legal citation for that. So far I haven't found it.

I suspect it's corporate CYA covering by Walmart or the opinion of an unelected state bureaucrat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
You guys can sit around and try to read state of Illinois legal codes all you want. They were written by politicians (some of whom are now in jail) many of whom have law degrees so: Good luck with that! The fact remains that yes, the Walmart in Sparta did have piles and piles of all brands in flats. Anyone willing to pay the price (which was a bit less than the shell house at the Grand) could walk in and buy them. That was TWO years ago. Last year there was a large sign at the entrance to the room with all the ammo. The sign made perfectly clear that they would only sell ammo to Illinois residents and residents of states contiguous to Illinois. I went to the service counter and asked about this. I pointed out that anyone could by ammo last year. They said since I live in Nebraska (not contiguous to Illinois) the only way I could buy ammo from them was if I bought a Non res hunting license. I talked to a number of other shooters at the Grand that had the same experience. People can read the codes and form whatever opinion they want. However, the only opinion that matters is Walmart's opinion. They are the ones that are, or are not, selling ammo and according to Remington, are the only ones that can get STS and Nitro.

You have goofy politicians passing goofy laws that they think (or maybe don't think, but say it because it sounds good) it will help control crime. Then somebody figures out that: hey, they sell a lot of $10-15K guns at the Grand, we need to get a cut of that sales tax, sooo, lets pass another law that says out of state residents can by guns at the Grand, just not where else. Then somebody says we have thousands of shooters coming to an event from out of state, they need ammo. Sooo, lets pass another law that says they can buy ammo at the Grand, just nowhere else. Then the City of Sparta decides they want a cut of all that sales tax so they expand the city boundaries by several miles to include the WSRC. Sooo, the Walmart in Sparta decides that this now makes it legal for them to sell ammo to all those out of state people. Then a couple years later some bureaucrat decides no they can't. Then you get a really stupid ammo company with apparently very stupid management, involved, and they decide they will only distribute their top of the line target ammo to Walmart even though Walmart doses not sell ammo at the world's biggest clay target shooting facility and legally cannot sell it to most of the out of state visitors to this facility.

You can try to put whatever "happy face" you want on this, but this is pretty much how it looks to most shooters coming to the Grand from out of state. Most of us are really impressed with the WSRC and really enjoy shooting there. We have met many wonderful people in Southern Illinois and hope to see and shoot with them again. But we shake our head in amazement at the Illinois politicians and the mess they have created. It is even more depressing that one of the biggest ammo companies has decided to jump in and make it worse, at the same time claiming they were unaware of these laws.

I generally stay in Columbia, IL. There is a large Walmart in Arnold, MO just across the bridge (10 minutes). I can go there and buy Remington. Guess what State of Illinois: bye, bye sales tax!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,567 Posts
I'm in Dallas, I just called the Walmart in Sparta, IL and said I had a question about buying shotgun shells there. They transferred me to a guy in that department.

I asked if I had to be a resident of the state in order to buy shells there. He said "yes, if you're a resident of the state, I need to see your FOID card. If you're in a bordering state (and he named them off), I need to see your driver's license. If you're out of state, I need to see your out of state hunting license."

He then asked where I was from and I told him, and he said I would need the out of state hunting licence. I said "wow, what a mess..." and he said "yeah, it really has shut me down here - they changed the laws before last year's Grand and it really affected our ability to sell shells. I've talked to every representative, senator, legislature I can and we can't seem to get anything changed". I said "so, you see a lot of pissed off customers come in and try to buy shells?" He said "oh yeah!".

I thanked him for his time. I didn't want to get into the STS/Nitro issue.

I was surprised to hear the FOID card response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOID_(firearms)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yep, that is pretty much what they told me last year face to face at the Walmart. I talked to a number of other shooters that had the same experience. Walmart had a sign posted that pretty much said this. But, you CAN buy shells at the shell house (just not Nitro or STS next year) at the Grand even though you are from out of state and no ID ( no FOID, no drivers license, NOTHING) is required. I know, I did. Evidently there has been a rash of problems with Chicago criminals driving down to he Sparta Walmart and buying ammo to commit murders back in Chicago. For some unexplained reason they drive right on by the WSRC and do not buy ammo there. Go figure! Maybe, just maybe: because there are around 2000 armed honest citizens roaming the grounds of the WSRC. Lots of them are pretty darned good shots.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,567 Posts
albatros said:
... Chicago criminals driving down to he Sparta Walmart and buying ammo to commit murders back in Chicago. For some unexplained reason they drive right on by the WSRC and do not buy ammo there. Go figure!
Sorry, I've never been to the Grand, would love to - but what is the WSRC?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
WSRC is the official name the Sate gave to the entire facility: World Shooting and Recreation Complex. That is what is on the big sign out front. It does have extensive camping facilities, some fishing lakes, and a variety of shooting venues (pistol, sporting clays, trap, and skeet.) Back when the politicians were busy fooling each other, and the public, and justifying the expense, all this was going to draw big crowds for a big part of the year. It may have 120 traps on a line over 3 miles long but is actually quite a bit bigger than that. Unfortunately, the part that gets used is the the trap line, the vendor buildings and the campgrounds and they all get used a few weeks a year.

FYI: It is worth the trip- an amazing event and amazing facility.
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top