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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Friend of mine was at a shoot, here is the situation. Shooter is shooting super sporting.
Shooter calls for the pair, shoots and misses first bird, second bird is a real screamer and breaks before he shoots at it. On the repeat of this pair the shooter misses the first target again with the first shot, but instead of going for the second target he breaks the first bird with the second barrel . They get in a discussion about it and the head ref rules it dead and lost. I think that because the shooter did not shoot his second barrel at first bird in the first attempt he established it as a lost bird, and it should have been scored lost pair. What do you all think?
 

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was it a report pair or true pair?

if report, the lost first target is established lost. If he takes both shots at it on the repeat, its still lost. Pair is scored lost and lost.

If a true pair, whole pair is repeated and the score would be Dead and lost.

thats my read on this....
 

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This isn't FITASC, so the major thread discussing a similar situation is moot. Sporting rules apply. Report pair, first bird established, pair over.
True pair, nothing established, pair over - period
 

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As dpe2002 and oneounceload correctly pointed out, it all depends on what type of "pair" it was. We are all hoping it was a true pair because in that case the call was correct.

Report pair: First target is established lost in the first attempt. In Super Sporting (Sporting Clays) there is no way to make this lost bird dead by hitting it, so it should have been scored as a lost pair.

True pair: The first pair was no-bird, nothing established, pair over as if nothing happened. Scored lost and dead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I believe it was a report pair that is why I called it the way you did.. The ref that called it the way he did has been around for a long time so the dead lost call surprised me. When you are in this type of game when wins are one bird differences it is a shame when these types of calls are made.
 

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Why it is a shame? If the shooter score 1 out of 2 for the pair, whether you want to call it "dead/lost" or "lost/dead", the result is the same - he broke one out of two presented.
 

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mortum said:
Report pair: Lost pair
True pair: Dead / Lost
Huh? How do you get lost pair?

And dead/lost when a bird breaks in the air?

Not hardly
 

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oneounceload said:
mortum said:
Report pair: Lost pair
True pair: Dead / Lost
Huh? How do you get lost pair?

And dead/lost when a bird breaks in the air?

Not hardly
My apologies... I misread "breaks in the air" part. Should be Dead / Lost in either case.

Edited: Wait... if this is a report pair, the first bird was launched and missed so, it is established "lost"... no matter what happened to the second bird, right? On the second try, the fist bird was already established "lost" regardless whether shooter shot at it second time or not... and, since he let the second bird go, it is a lost pair after all. No? What am I missing.
 

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Another view. In Sporting, first bird was missed and second bird was not shoot able. If a report pair, first bird is established lost and pair is reshot. If the first pair had been a good pair, the miss on the first bird could be followed with a second shot at the same bird. Sounds to me like the ref is correct. Miss on shot #1, and dead on shot #2 even if it was at the same target.
 

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^^^ yep

As a shooter I have the right to shoot twice at a target. If there is a pair where the first SHOULD be somewhat easy and the second is way out of my league, and I miss with the first and decide to stay with it, then that applies on the redo
 

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3) In the event of a NO BIRD on the second target of
a report pair, the first bird will be established as
DEAD or LOST and the shooter will repeat the pair
to establish the result of the second target. When
repeating the pair, the shooter must make a legitimate
attempt at the first target.

this is cut from the NSCA rule book. Based on this.....Lost Pair
 

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When did the shooter give up his ability to shoot a second shell at the first target if it is still in the air? He missed one target on the first pair and as such, cannot get two hits. This scenario is why the FITASC rules were changed recently to say first target noted on a pair where there is a no bird on the second bird. A strict reading of the rules says lost pair, which is not really fair, but then is life?
 

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When did the shooter give up his ability to shoot a second shell at the first target if it is still in the air? He missed one target on the first pair and as such, cannot get two hits. This scenario is why the FITASC rules were changed recently to say first target noted on a pair where there is a no bird on the second bird. A strict reading of the rules says lost pair, which is not really fair, but then is life?
I certainly understand oneounces viewpoint but the rule as it is on the books doesn't read that way. perhaps it should. If we apply our own interpretation...rules ain't rules :lol:

The way I and any squad I have been a part of have scored, we would score this lost / lost and advise the shooter why for his future reference.
 

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oneounceload said:
This isn't FITASC, so the major thread discussing a similar situation is moot. Sporting rules apply. Report pair, first bird established, pair over.
True pair, nothing established, pair over - period
oneounceload said:
mortum said:
Report pair: Lost pair
True pair: Dead / Lost
Huh? How do you get lost pair?
And dead/lost when a bird breaks in the air?
Not hardly
oneounceload said:
As a shooter I have the right to shoot twice at a target. If there is a pair where the first SHOULD be somewhat easy and the second is way out of my league, and I miss with the first and decide to stay with it, then that applies on the redo
oneounce... as you pointed out above, this isn't FITASC, it's Super Sporting, scored by the rules of Sporting Clays.

We now it was a report pair, and the first target was established lost with the miss in the first attempt, second target was no-bird, redo the pair. In Super Sporting (scored with Sporting Clays rules) there is no way to ever to make this lost bird dead by hitting it on the redo... it is forever lost. Shooting at it twice on the repeat pair is a exercise in futility: lost pair.

oneounceload said:
Why it is a shame? If the shooter score 1 out of 2 for the pair, whether you want to call it "dead/lost" or "lost/dead", the result is the same - he broke one out of two presented.
It can make a great deal of difference if the shoot is giving prizes or breaking ties for the longest unbroken run.
 

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When did the shooter give up his ability to shoot a second shell at the first target if it is still in the air? He missed one target on the first pair and as such, cannot get two hits. This scenario is why the FITASC rules were changed recently to say first target noted on a pair where there is a no bird on the second bird. A strict reading of the rules says lost pair, which is not really fair, but then is life?
Exactly, seems like this should be fixed if you cannot shoot 2 times on a redo at target one if you choose if you can shoot at it twice if you miss first.
 

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Rules should be changed to state 1st SHOT is established as lost and state that the first shot of the re-shoot must be missed and the 2nd shot taken to establish the 2nd shot.

This keeps the other rule that the shooter is allowed to fire both shots at the first target in tact.
 

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Jason, is the shooter reshoots and breaks the first target, it is still "lost" and established. Don't really need to state that he must miss it, because, if he breaks it on the first shot he would simply have to move on to the second target anyway.
 

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waverider said:
Rules should be changed to state 1st SHOT is established as lost and state that the first shot of the re-shoot must be missed and the 2nd shot taken to establish the 2nd shot.

This keeps the other rule that the shooter is allowed to fire both shots at the first target in tact.
This is precisely how FITASC works - shots are accounted for, and scored by the results of those shots on the targets. In Sporting Clays, however, targets are accounted for and scored.

In this respect, the rules of both games are very different, and each set of rules are currently consistent. It would really make no sense to change to scoring just repeated report pairs in Sporting Clays by shot instead of by target. In this case, all the rest of the rules should have to be re-written too.

Is it fair? It doesn't have to be fair, in fact it doesn't even have to be justifiable - it's a rule. As long as the rule is written clearly and made known to referee and shooter alike, then to play the game properly we all abide by it until it is changed.
 
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