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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Years ago in my misspent youth I took a couple of deer with the factory rifled slugs of the day shot in a single shot smoothbore. But I never became a rifleman nor even a deer hunter. Now I hear about sabots and rifled barrels for shotguns.

Can sombody concisely explain the interest in sabots, and how they might have any advantage over a full bore slug in a rifled barrel or smoothbore?
 

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Well if you shoot a foster slug in a rifled barrel, you will fill your rifling grooves up with lead, which is very hard to clean out. If you shoot a sabot out of the rifled barrel, the plastic is much easier to clean out. Also with lighter sabots, and smaller diameter bullets in the sabot, some people might think they can shoot farther and flatter. Although that don't always hold true.

If you are not shooting any great distances, the foster slug out of a smoothbore might be fine.

I hope I answered your question. If not, maybe ask with more detail, and I am sure more people might jump in here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I can understand rifled barrels improving accuracy, even for foster slugs, and the leading problem makes sense, too, though one would think that a stiff brush would take care of this. But it is not clear why sabots should be more accurate than any other slug. Improved sectional density? Maybe, but it doesn't seem like it would be very significant. Higher velocity? If so, how is this achieved? Is a sabot still a front heavy projectile like a foster?

Is it Lyman who makes a hollow lead slug that that looks like a giant air rifle pellet? Seems like I saw an ad some time ago for such a slug. Seemed like a good idea at first look, because it reduced the barrel contact area significally.

Is anyone using brass or copper bullets in a sabot?

Thanks for the comments. I am learning something here and that is one of the good things about this forum.
 

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Spacegold said:
I can understand rifled barrels improving accuracy, even for foster slugs, and the leading problem makes sense, too, though one would think that a stiff brush would take care of this. But it is not clear why sabots should be more accurate than any other slug. Improved sectional density? Maybe, but it doesn't seem like it would be very significant. Higher velocity? If so, how is this achieved? Is a sabot still a front heavy projectile like a foster?

Is it Lyman who makes a hollow lead slug that that looks like a giant air rifle pellet? Seems like I saw an ad some time ago for such a slug. Seemed like a good idea at first look, because it reduced the barrel contact area significally.

Is anyone using brass or copper bullets in a sabot?

Thanks for the comments. I am learning something here and that is one of the good things about this forum.
Yes, Lymans sabot is the over grown pellet gun pellet. Also yes, it has very little barrel contact, and that keeps the presures down, and velocities up :D It has a hollow skirt like the foster slug, so even if it looses it spin, it still flies nose first.

There are sabots out there made of copper .... Remington is still marketing the Copper Solid, and there are companies loading the Barns Expander Slug, which I do believe is solid copper.

Yes a good solvent and a bronze brush will help get lead out of a barrel, but most people don't want to scrub long enough to remove all the lead fouling :?

I am jumping around here a bit, but most of the sabots on the market, are like a regular bullets. If it looses its spin from the rifling, it will turn around and fly heavy end first, which we all know, is the back end of the bullet, or it will just tumble.

One more thing I want to hit on, is that when they first started rifling shotgun barrels, they rifled them for actual 12, or 20 gauge diameter slugs. They are still using the same twist rates, on 45 and 50 caliber bullets in the sabots. Now people wonder why their sabot slinging gun, is shooting a 6 inch group at 100 yards .... well the twist rate was not designed for that diameter, and weight, of the bullet they are shooting. They were designed more for the slugs like the Lyman sabot, which is very close to the actual diameter of the barrel.

I hope I said something right here, that you understand. This morning I was blaming the coffee. This afternoon, I watched the Packer game, and drank home made wine. Now I just hope what I am thinking, makes it to my fingers that are typing :?
 

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Amen to the last part of what you have said. Rate of Twist, "total" projectile weight, and velocity are a complex formula that makes ANY kind of Sabot Slug either succeed or fail.
The reason that the LYMAN slugs are inherently accurate is the aerodynamics of their shape once the spin slows. It keeps it flying true.The range however is limited because of its BC and weight.
Bullets just don't do that and rely on the spin for most of their accuracy. Now you have to get into some damn tough material in the sabot to translate that spin to the bullet. The higher the velocity the tougher it is to do.

I am trying to push a 20 ga. Lyman in a 12 ga.platform. At 50-65yds the accuracy is fine and very fast. Out at 100 the accuracy drops of markedly. No success in two years of trying.
I really think that the rate of twist for a 12 ga. bore negates this from ever happening well. Will keep trying. Personal quest.

I think that once pistol calibers get approved in shotgun areas the era of these super slugs will slow substantially. Ever check the price of .44 mags for 50 rds by comparison ? See what I mean. I think advertising can only do so much. You have to deal eventually with reality.

Take Care
 

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neophyte,

I just have one thing left to say .... YUP!!!! We are are the same page, I think :shock:

As for the 20 gauge slug out of a 12 gauge rifled barrel ..... I made them shooting great out of rifled choke tubes, but not out of a fully rifled barrel. Maybe we should compare notes and see if we can make this work :?
 

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Hmmmmmmm?????????????
Neo: Rotational velocity hardly slows down at all.
The change in rotational velocity (spin) is of no consequence.
Any bullet runs out of forward velocity way before the rotational velocity drops any significant amount.

The "Greenhill" formula for determining twist rate for large slow bullets indicates that the .73 caliber should stabilize in a 1:80 to 1:120 twist, not the current 1:24 to 1:35 the makers use today.
Theoretically the .45 and .50 caliber bullets found in many sabot slugs should stabilize fine in the 1:35 twist rate at velocities of 1400 to 1700 f.p.s.
They don't tho.
I may have a couple degrees but they ain't in physics, ergo I'm not educated enough to work out all the math, or the black art, but I think part of the problem is:
1) switch barrel guns built like shotguns not rifles
2) sabot material characteristics in COLD weather
3) quality control by the ammo makers
4) crap triggers on the shotguns (all of them)
5) wild claims by the ammo makers
6) even wilder claims by shooters :wink: :wink:
Americans will buy literally anything.
 

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jeager106 said:
Hmmmmmmm?????????????
Neo: Rotational velocity hardly slows down at all.
The change in rotational velocity (spin) is of no consequence.
Any bullet runs out of forward velocity way before the rotational velocity drops any significant amount.
I agree. Velocity is lost at a much faster rate than spin, so the net effect is spin ends up being relatively faster as velocity slows.

Theoretically the .45 and .50 caliber bullets found in many sabot slugs should stabilize fine in the 1:35 twist rate at velocities of 1400 to 1700 f.p.s.
They don't tho.
Yes they do :) Look at the smokeless muzzleloader conversions from Ron Name at SMI. His standard twist rate offered is 1:36, for shooting saboted .45 pistol bullets from 2-300+ grains, and they shoot MOA just as well as the faster 1:24 savage smokeless ML or even the 1:20 custom .45 smokeless MLs that forgo sabots. At one time I was convinced twist rate was heavily at play, but I no longer believe that to be the main factor.

I may have a couple degrees but they ain't in physics, ergo I'm not educated enough to work out all the math, or the black art, but I think part of the problem is:
1) switch barrel guns built like shotguns not rifles
2) sabot material characteristics in COLD weather
3) quality control by the ammo makers
4) crap triggers on the shotguns (all of them)
5) wild claims by the ammo makers
6) even wilder claims by shooters :wink: :wink:
Americans will buy literally anything.
I'm with you on most of this. Mostly the quality control (guns and ammo).
 

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wileyhunter said:
As for the 20 gauge slug out of a 12 gauge rifled barrel ..... I made them shooting great out of rifled choke tubes, but not out of a fully rifled barrel.
Already been done...the Brenneke KO sabot. The ones I have shot shoot well. Recoil is not as brutal as the standard 12, relatively inexpensive and pretty accurate. They were what got my interest in Ithacas started.

Although they are still catalogued, I have not been able to fing them in central Ohio.
 
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