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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have talked about this gun before here... Its been a Long time ago though. I believe in 2011..
Lowgun on here gave me some very helpful information,basically saying this gun is indeed a simmons marketed skeet gun... But,as usual there were differences of opinion about it..

I have done a lot of askin around my local area,,and have again recieved mixed opinons.. Some have told me it is only worth the parts in it because it really isnt a FACTORY PURE winchester.. they feel it is a "franken" gun put together with parts from simmons.. They tell me it is at best a 300.00 gun..

Others ,who believe it to be a Factory winchester gun that simmons bought, then installed their rib,and the Cutts (popular at that time) feel it has a different value,almost calling it collectable....

So,, I am back.. wondering what the story on these are,, or if any of you here actually believe it is a marketed gun...

Note the simmons rib marking, the WS-1 choke marked barrel,,and the fact the proof mark is covered.. and of course the Cutts,,that I actually REALLY like...

Quite a few OK picture I took of it... 12 to be exact.I am going to post a link to the folder to save this web site the data.. I hope it works... If not let me know....

Thanks in advance!! I would really like toknow what i have,,and what you guys think its value today is.... I am not selling...

http://s137.photobucket.com/user/Mooseg ... t=9&page=1
 

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The gun could have easily started life out as a plain barreled WS-1 marked skeet gun from WW.

It has been altered with an after market Cutts Comp added, seeing the only Cutts Comps which were WW factory were flanged to the barrel.

The Simmons rib was added.

The stock was cut and recoil pad added (WW never marketed a Skeet gun with a recoil pad), unless you have documentation from WW on the stock and recoil pad its considered altered by collectors.

This gun could very well have been a Simmon Marketed gun, with all the Simmons alternations, modifications and changes. Collector value, I'm not aware of any serious WW shotgun collectors collecting Simmons marketed guns besides maybe some Model 42's.

I'd guess your associates are a bit off on value/worth/price. I'd call it $1000-1200 OTD.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
M12Gunboy said:
The gun could have easily started life out as a plain barreled WS-1 marked skeet gun from WW.

It has been altered with an after market Cutts Comp added, seeing the only Cutts Comps which were WW factory were flanged to the barrel.

The Simmons rib was added.

The stock was cut and recoil pad added (WW never marketed a Skeet gun with a recoil pad), unless you have documentation from WW on the stock and recoil pad its considered altered by collectors.

This gun could very well have been a Simmon Marketed gun, with all the Simmons alternations, modifications and changes. Collector value, I'm not aware of any serious WW shotgun collectors collecting Simmons marketed guns besides maybe some Model 42's.

I'd guess your associates are a bit off on value/worth/price. I'd call it $350 OTD.
I was told that a plain barrel WS1 choked gun is VERY RARE.. It talks about that in the previous thread i mentioned.. I kind wanted fresh opinions about this.. I have had people tell me what Renttis and M12 gunboy have said,along with the 300.00 dollar value... BUT,, I have had others tell me it is a PERFECT example of the marketed gun,and the value being higher.... i am more curious about the history, than the value..

Anyways,, here is the past thread.. lowgun was who gave me the most helpfull information... but,, I encourage new ideas..

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=196283&start=40

P.S. I am HTDOG in the old thread (Hunt test dog) I had to refresh my account... Long story...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Below is what lowgun posted in the old thread.... Again I have had people locally tell me he is exactly correct,, I have others tell me the gun is only worth the parts, The stock is a gaudy circus replicate of a skeet stock,and Bolt and carrier were never jewled that cheaply...

I recieved the gun 20 years ago as a gift. the person that had it before me got it at an auction in a suburb of Chicago in the early 70's the auction was held because the owner died.. It was thought he was the original owner from the widow.. he shot skeet quite a bit,and the widow remembered him purchasing the gun strictly for that purpose.

I have determined the manufacturing date as '58 or '59 ish.

Here is lowguns comments... Remember I am HTdog in the old thread.

Htdog, your gun is, as you suggest, a "Simmons marketed" gun. The reason your gun does not show the remnants of a solid rib is that the barrel the rib was installed on was a plain barrel. An original plain barrel WS1 skeet grade gun from Winchester is quite a rarity, but Winchester sold many non catalogued plain skeet bored and marked barrels to Simmons, either as assembled guns or barrels only. I don't think we know whether these barrels were made in the fifties for Simmons or whether they are old stock. If you ever disassemble your gun, you could look for the year of manufacture marking on the bottom of the barrel. This marking has nothing to do with the year of manufacture of the gun. The million seven serial number range is at the height of the popularity of Simmons marketed skeet guns. I sold a gun identical to yours to a long time shooting friend. It is also in the million seven range, has a Simmons rib and a Cutts installed on a plain WS1 barrel. Don't sell the collector value of your Simmons marketed gun short. With minty original 20 gauge vent rib Model 12s selling at close to $3000, these Simmons marketed guns are probably approaching $2000. That is at least twice the value of a converted field gun with replacement wood and retrofit Simmons rib. Your gun seems to have upgraded wood that could have been original equipment from Simmons. The gun I sold to my friend has painfully plain standard skeet grade wood. The hidden proof mark and the original WS1 plain barrel are the major clues to identifying your gun as a Simmons marketed gun.
 

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blindretrieve said:
Below is what lowgun posted in the old thread.... Again I have had people locally tell me he is exactly correct,, I have others tell me the gun is only worth the parts, The stock is a gaudy circus replicate of a skeet stock,and Bolt and carrier were never jewled that cheaply...

I recieved the gun 20 years ago as a gift. the person that had it before me got it at an auction in a suburb of Chicago in the early 70's the auction was held because the owner died.. It was thought he was the original owner from the widow.. he shot skeet quite a bit,and the widow remembered him purchasing the gun strictly for that purpose.

I have determined the manufacturing date as '58 or '59 ish.

Here is lowguns comments... Remember I am HTdog in the old thread.

Htdog, your gun is, as you suggest, a "Simmons marketed" gun. The reason your gun does not show the remnants of a solid rib is that the barrel the rib was installed on was a plain barrel. An original plain barrel WS1 skeet grade gun from Winchester is quite a rarity, but Winchester sold many non catalogued plain skeet bored and marked barrels to Simmons, either as assembled guns or barrels only. I don't think we know whether these barrels were made in the fifties for Simmons or whether they are old stock. If you ever disassemble your gun, you could look for the year of manufacture marking on the bottom of the barrel. This marking has nothing to do with the year of manufacture of the gun. The million seven serial number range is at the height of the popularity of Simmons marketed skeet guns. I sold a gun identical to yours to a long time shooting friend. It is also in the million seven range, has a Simmons rib and a Cutts installed on a plain WS1 barrel. Don't sell the collector value of your Simmons marketed gun short. With minty original 20 gauge vent rib Model 12s selling at close to $3000, these Simmons marketed guns are probably approaching $2000. That is at least twice the value of a converted field gun with replacement wood and retrofit Simmons rib. Your gun seems to have upgraded wood that could have been original equipment from Simmons. The gun I sold to my friend has painfully plain standard skeet grade wood. The hidden proof mark and the original WS1 plain barrel are the major clues to identifying your gun as a Simmons marketed gun.
I just read the entire previous thread from Oct 2009-Jan 2011.

I am standing firm that "This gun could very well have been a Simmons Marketed gun, with all the Simmons alternations, modifications and changes. Collector value, I'm not aware of any serious WW shotgun collectors collecting Simmons marketed guns besides maybe some Model 42's."

I just passed on a high condition Model 12 Skeet gun in 12 gauge with SKEET marked receiver, 1940 SN with a 26" plain barrel, no choke mark, correct stamps and Flanged Cutts, uncut stock W/14" LOP, all original WW configuration in 95% or better overall condition which sold for $675 plus shipping. It was the real deal.

Simmons Marketed or not the thing that kills your gun is the Cutts Comp. Even original WW Flanged Cutts pre-war Skeet guns aren't bringing any money now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
M12gunboy.

Thank You for your honesty... Many agree with you..

The Cutts is what I like most about it... I get a bunch of abuse about it, till the shootin starts,, :)

I only own the Spreader,and Modified tubes....When lead was legal, I took many geese with this gun,,
 

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Many Simmons marketed Model 12 skeet guns had Cutts Comps installed at Simmons, but it is impossible to tell whether it was a Simmons installation or someone elses. Simmons marketed guns are not at the top of the Model 12 food chain, so the Cutts doesn't seem to depress their value much. The Cutts is part of fifties skeet history as is the Simmons marketed Model 12. The Simmons 20 gauge Cutts skeet gun I sold to a friend years ago is a great alternative to paying $3000 for an original WS1 donut post gun. I would value my friend's gun at about $1200, not $300 or $350.
 

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lowgun said:
Many Simmons marketed Model 12 skeet guns had Cutts Comps installed at Simmons, but it is impossible to tell whether it was a Simmons installation or someone elses. Simmons marketed guns are not at the top of the Model 12 food chain, so the Cutts doesn't seem to depress their value much. The Cutts is part of fifties skeet history as is the Simmons marketed Model 12. The Simmons 20 gauge Cutts skeet gun I sold to a friend years ago is a great alternative to paying $3000 for an original WS1 donut post gun. I would value my friend's gun at about $1200, not $300 or $350.
FWIW, an original WS1 donut post 20 gauge skeet gun in high original condition is $2500-3500. A NIB original WS1 donut post skeet gun in 20 gauge recently sold for $5500 at auction in the last 12 months.

I believe the OP could realize $1000-1200 on this gun to the right buyer.

This information is based on RECENT experience buying, searching, comparing, researching and watching Model 12's on the market which are actually selling in 2016.

Shoot the gun. Don't worry what its worth. It isn't a collector.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
M12Gunboy said:
lowgun said:
Many Simmons marketed Model 12 skeet guns had Cutts Comps installed at Simmons, but it is impossible to tell whether it was a Simmons installation or someone elses. Simmons marketed guns are not at the top of the Model 12 food chain, so the Cutts doesn't seem to depress their value much. The Cutts is part of fifties skeet history as is the Simmons marketed Model 12. The Simmons 20 gauge Cutts skeet gun I sold to a friend years ago is a great alternative to paying $3000 for an original WS1 donut post gun. I would value my friend's gun at about $1200, not $300 or $350.
I thought the OP was discussing a 12 GAUGE gun not a 20?

FTIW, an original WS1 donut post skeet gun in 12 gauge is a $1500-2500 gun in high original condition not $2500-3500 like a 20 gauge in the same configuration and high condition. A NIB original WS1 donut post skeet gun in 20 gauge recently sold for $5500 at auction in the last 12 months.

If the OPS gun was a 20 Gauge I believe it could realize $1000-1200 to the right buyer but its NOT, its a 12 gauge. Given its a 12, I believe it would realize much closer to $300-400.

This information is based on RECENT experience buying, searching, comparing, researching and watching Model 12's on the market which are actually selling in 2016.

Shoot the gun. Don't worry what its worth. It isn't a collector.
This post only reveals you didnt look at the pictures... Pretty evidentit is a 20, when its stamped on the barre... Again though,, thank you for your opinion.... Its hard to come to some sense of the Value of this gun.Like I said...MANY people tellme its just a shooter, only worth the parts..... Funny though that after they tell me that they ask me if i want to sell it... They offer 300.00 :) Many many others tell me what lowgun says,,but do say the market fluctuates..

I know what its worth to me... Its NOT for sale... Buttt..I is an old codger... Family that is left doesnt have interest in guns.. I do have friends I would consider leaving my better quality stuff to..

Pretty soon,,,, :) I am going to have to decide what to do with this stuff. I have a Model 21 also,, that's been said is nothing more than a Jack handel.. :)

The talk about the Cutts always comes back to the word "Ugly"

I guess it depends on what you consider Ugly...

Guns,,, Especially Shotguns,, IMHO,,should have beautiful wood, and deep rich blue.. I also like the fact they represent the popularity of the times.. I think the Cutts does than,,and as an aside,, works beautifully.. JMHDAO.. I have a hard time looking at Plastic stocked shotguns,with satin blueing to reduce "Glare" and use that selling point to hide a lazyness to give customers workmanship... Again,,, JMHDAO..

Collectors are a different bunch of snobbery... They will run your gun down to you,,BUT,,,, They will most assuredly offer you a Price,, if it is of some value..

I need to decide what I will do with this gun in the future... Do I leave it to someone who appreciates the history, the wood,the workmanship you can NOT purchase any longer with a U.S.made gun,, or do It sellit,,or give it to someone I know will take it to a pawnshop, to get money to purchase a black rattle gun?

Its hard to know what to do... Right now it aint goin nowwhere except dove hunting next week.. :)
 

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I stand corrected and have edited my posts.

My apologies Lowgun. Can you say I'm an idiot and confused two guns. I was looking at a different gun which is just like yours but a 12 gauge and never looked at pictures numbers 8 and 9 which clearly show your gun is a 20.

I am standing firm that "This gun could very well have been a Simmons Marketed gun, with all the Simmons alternations, modifications and changes. Collector value, I'm not aware of any serious WW shotgun collectors collecting Simmons marketed guns besides maybe some Model 42's." and its likely a $1000-1200 gun.

Sorry for the confusion gents.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
:D No problem.... You wouldnt believe who you is talkin to... I wrote the book on confused... :) I forgot one time I moved outa state,, and drove 6 hrs to get back home ! Couldnt understand WHY some odd car was parked in my driveway.. :)... and I understand this Internet talk can get anyone side tracked.. Like I said I thank ANYONE who replies to my question..
Lowgun has always been very helpful with information.. as is Researcher, havent seen him in a while though.

With almost 6 years of asking questions about this gun.. I have received a Huge variance of opinions about it.. I talked to an "Expert" at one of the BIG sporting goods outfitters.... He said many similar things as posted here... he offered me a $300.00 deal... Said gun was just a shooter, Cutts KILLS the value. (I agree its uglier than a mudhen) I told him it wasnt for sale or trade.. I was just searching information.. That was a year ago... I bet he calls me twice a month... :)

The Gun and I go hand in hand.... Both of us are Uglier than He!!,,LOUD,,and nobody wants to be around us...
 

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After all of my well intentioned effort to share what I know about Winchester shotguns, other posters seem to make a joke of it. The fn?682 is the worst of them, on the older thread. I am through helping others to make intelligent choices on purchases of Winchester shotguns. This shotgunboy guy in Maryland is a good example of someone who benefitted from the advice of others and now has a valuable collection and is an "authority". I have done my job and now others can take over.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
lowgun.. Please check your private messages,,

YOU are the only person who has given me advice based on experience,and facts.. Others only give their opinion based on nothing more than gut feelings.
Some dont even read or look at the information I presented to form their opinion.. They just see the Cutts,,and discussion is basically over..

If I offended you in ANY way... Please accept my apology...

If I could figure out how to delete this sad thread..I would,, but i dont see how I can do it..

Again Lowgun,,please accept my apology as to what has transpired from asking an Honest question...
 

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lowgun said:
After all of my well intentioned effort to share what I know about Winchester shotguns, other posters seem to make a joke of it. The fn?682 is the worst of them, on the older thread. I am through helping others to make intelligent choices on purchases of Winchester shotguns. This shotgunboy guy in Maryland is a good example of someone who benefitted from the advice of others and now has a valuable collection and is an "authority". I have done my job and now others can take over.[/quote
]

Feeling your pain too so not visiting as much as in the past this Forum shows too much lack of appreciation ....................

Simmons guns are not appreciated due to their pedigree; you and I are the only collectors who owned early Ernie Simmons catalogs. If I memory serves me well today, only known first catalog was 1949 with most from the early 50's with his ribs and cutts's added to Skeet guns. Ernie Simmons repaired and sold Winchesters in his shop and attended skeet and trap shoots selling Winchester factory and Simmons Rib shotguns. Ernie ordered model 12's from Winchester in target and field configurations to add his vent ribs.

If upcoming collectors ever run across early post war Simmons catalogs, NSSA & ATA magazines you'll see Simmons Ads.
 
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