Shotgun Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, after about 8 months waiting my Integrally Suppressed shotgun should be getting it's stamp soon. Pretty excited!!!

Now for the loading part.... Does anybody know where I can find some reliable subsonic 12 gauge load recipes? Or maybe someone has gone through the process of lowering an existing recipe to get it to subsonic?

I reload my shells using the stacked method, so my pressures and FPS are already a bit lower as compared to plastic wad data. So in some recipes where the FPS is around 1,100, I should be fairly close, but don't want to push my luck. Maybe someone can guide me to how much powder to lower at a time? Or what powder would be safe to do this with?

And please don't reply just to bust my chops on how stacked isn't the same as plastic wads, they're not interchangeable, the 10% powder rule, etc. I appreciate your concern, but it always seems to just end up with other posters arguing, it's about as bad as religion and politics.

Thanks in advance for any help
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,770 Posts
I would just lower the charge a grain at a time until you stop hearing that whip crack noise upon firing. When that whip crack noise goes away, you're subsonic. It's the bullets breaking the sound barrier that's responsible for the characteristic "whip crack" noise of a .22 LR and suppressed guns shooting supersonic bullets.
Best to use the faster burning powders for light loads like that. Red Dot, 700X, Extra Lite, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,074 Posts
You could always use a chrono to see where you stand with your loadings
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
752 Posts
http://www.metrogun.com/handloads.html

I just came in from shooting patterns with Load #2 over the chrono. SAM1 wad and I subbed 1-1/4 oz of Hevi 2's for steel T's. 10 gr. of beads over the shot for filler and a plastic wrapper added around the shot.
20.0 gr Herco came in right at 1,115 fps ES 5 SD 2
19.0 gr Herco came in right at 1,085 fps
18.2 gr Herco came in right at 1,050 fps
Through the Metro barrel with a skeet choke installed, I'm getting usable patterns at 30-40 yards. Duck burger patterns at 20.

If your looking for subsonic lead, bookmark this page -
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=78722

That 1-1/4 oz lead data from Aussieblackduck throws incredibly even patterns and the FPS he lists is bang on the numbers that I posted. Thanks AussieBlackDuck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,916 Posts
gehlsurf said:
... I reload my shells using the stacked method ...
gehlsurf-

OK, I give up. What's the "stacked method"?

I don't recall this term being used in the forum previously. Search engines think you're the only poster ever to use it on the entire shotgunworld site.

I know that careful stacking of pellets may be required when reloading a hull with buckshot. MEC makes and sells a shell stacker that some reloaders find handy.

Could you provide a reference (a reloading manual or other printed material, or a web link) that helpfully describes the "stacked method" for someone ignorant of the term?

It's a rare day when my visiting this forum doesn't educate me in some new aspect of reloading.

Thanks. And apologies for possibly diverting your search for a subsonic load; however, I can offer no help until I know what constitutes the "stacked method".

-- Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks guys!!! I was on the right track then with the lowering 1 gran at a time, sometimes .5 grn. It's tricky, because you still need the pressure to be enough to push out the round of course-ask how I know-there's a reason I keep a ram-rod and use break action, hahaha. And thanks for the load data!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
As for your question pitted bore, it's also called Card Stacking, BPI has a manual that I just got about 7 months ago, now they don't sell it!!! They're scrubbing Shotgun History!!! So all it is, is instead of using a plastic wad, you use cardboard as your wad over the powder, then felt or cork over that/under the shot. And I've gotten into using scrap book hole cutters in flower shaped patterns and such to act as a cup, still finding the best patterns with slugs and shot. I also use rectangular cut outs to "sleeve" my shot as a wad. You can look up Circlefly.com and look up old Alcan Nitro cards. Before plastic wads-which I think came out in the 70's-could be wrong in my memory, this was the way they did it. Most people think a shotgun is some fancy high-tech machine that has tight tolerances like a Ferrari, well, even the $10,000 Caesars aren't that. While it shouldn't be taken lightly, and always use printed data-and if you want printed data for card stacking it's around (got some from the card in a Lee Hand Loader using Red Dot), it is a very archaic weapon, nothing more than a muzzle loader, just that nowadays we take out the "back side/inside" of the barrel out, called a shell, and use smokeless powder, not black. A shotgun has been used since civil way days, all that's changed is the materials-got stonger. It's not the technological jump that say the Muzzleloader has with the AR15 or such, old ******* work the same as our new, just weaker metal-like dimascus *******. Just RESPECT it, and you can realize the REAL potential of the most versatile gun in the world. The basic recipes-just like black powder- are made from grns of a said powder to grns of said shot. In theory and science, the grns in powder are used to push, lets say for example, 1oz of shot, in slug form, buck or shot, or even nuts and bolts-AS LONG AS IT EQUALS THE CORRECT EQUATION/RATIO!!!!! Meaning, correct powder grns to correct shot weight. The powder doesn't know the difference, just knows weight of shot, and back pressure from crimp or glued in OS card. This is simple science. If it takes 24 grains of Lil Gun powder to push 7/8 oz (be it lead-any form, steel, bismuth, etc.) out of a 28 gauge-THAT IS THE EQUATION YOU STICK TOO!!!! To play it safe, I never load to full pressures or speeds. But plastic wads limit this.... to there size/function. -read below for more

I use this method for a few different reasons-

1.-During the powder shortage, I got tired of buying powders but not having the correct wad, then buying wads, the patterns sucked, and waisted time, space, money. This method you just look up a recipe, use everything on it except the wad, cause you're making your own, opens up a whole new world of recipes-just in case you're a prepper, too, this is a great method for obvious reasons. This also frees up the fact of lead fitting into said plastic wads. You can have a recipe for 1oz shot, have the right wad, but then when using 1oz slug instead of shot, run into space issues, again, buying different wads. When making your own, you make the space according to the fillers-cork. So clearly you can stuff just about anything in the shell- AS LONG AS THE GRNS CALLED FOR IN THE RECIPE MATCH THE GRAINS OF SHOT YOU ARE LOADING!!!!
2.-Have you ever shot a shell that uses cork? It's like a pillow.... grab a plastic wad, grab some cork, see which one compresses easier!!! I can unload slugs fast in my pump, on target, because the recoil is almost not there-atleast compared to plastic wads
3.-When I go hunting, I get tired of picking up people's wads and shells-so I thought I'd find a way to make atleast my wads biodegradable
4.-It's crazy cheap, even if you buy them off of Circlefly and don't make your own.
5.-If you have a break action, and go full oldschool, you glue in the OS card, not crimp. This lowers the pressures a bit-sometimes too much, so you need to find a load with adequate pressure to start-but with no crimp/roll, your shell walls look like brand new!! More reloading... This is also the correct method for brass shells, it also water proofs the shells. And if you're into loading at the camp, or again, a prepper kinda guy, this is a great method if you don't have a press or a Lee Hand Loader handy.
6.-When running suppressed, some plastic wads run through the suppressor like a cheese grater, getting plastic inside the can. For some reason, my cardboard and cork don't have this problem-only answer is I can think of is that they don't expand with heat like plastic, so don't push themselves against the barrel wall where the ports are. Again, this is typically why they don't produce the pressures of plastic wads, no expansion

The only downside is the time, no press to do this kinda work. But if you make your own shot/slugs, you essentially make everything that is in the shotshell, except the shell, primer and powder, this is really cool to me. Another downside is method, but you get the hang of it. You MUST put the Nitro cards in Perpindicular to the shell walls, otherwise they can tend to "flip" from the gases bypassing them. This has happened, and why I use a breakaction, and keep one of those expandable ram-rods with me. Hasn't happened in a while, but did when I first started. And Clear shells help in this department when loading.

If you're interested, I can do a thread dedicated just to this-I don't now because typically all I get when it's mentioned is arguments on whether this is a safe method. When I go to the range even, young tacticool guys think i'm nuts when they see my shells-use clear Fiocchi- older guys smile and respect that I load this way, kinda nostalgic for them I think. but the tacticool guys have seemed to get interested when they see me unload my slugs the way I do, especially since I'm 5'7", not scrawny or anything, but certainly can tell I'm not a Marine or SWAT guy or anything, haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have an H&R single shot, my buddy at Colt's Ballistic Logistics designed and made the can. Very simple design, basically about 400 holes in the barrel-literally- with a huge Aluminum can over the barrel. Works like a charm. It does weigh a bit, considering it's a single shot, but I looked at the Silencerco Salvo for my Mossberg 500, and well, wanna talk about length.... and weight.... at the end of an already fairly heft gun? Opted for this instead, but the maintanence of it is stupid simple, basically 3 pieces-barrel, can, cap.

https://www.facebook.com/16170226419033 ... 229495708/

This is a video of it, running wet with towels, haha, we couldn't wait to try it, used anything we could find!!!

Oh, and just for your information, if you are interested, they quit making the single shot shotguns. So if you see one at a good price, scoop it up!!! Granted they're not auto or pump, but with the ejector, you can get real fast at reloading, and they can take some abuse and keep going, simple machines that will outlast anybody.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,357 Posts
Pitted Bore.
I think you have mistaken what the use of "stack height" on the forum really means.

It is only referring to the total fill of a hull, in the process of reloading.

Stack height that is too low, results in poor, concave crimps, due to the components not filling the case sufficiently.

Stack height that is too high, results in poor, bulged crimps, due to the components filling the case too full.

Generally, using a wad of the correct height, from the powder cup, to the shot floor of the shot cup, will adjust the "Stack Height" to the correct height for quality crimps.

If this is not what you are referring to, I apologize, but that's the take I got from your statement.

DLM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Haha, if that's what he was asking about D L Marcum, I just waisted a lot of typing time!!! I didn't even think it was that simple of a question, but you're right, I should've thought of that.

Sometimes I get used to having to explain the way I load, because it seems so different from what others are used to. So much so, that I look past the simplest of questions/answers, haha. Thanks for the more simple explanation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,770 Posts
gehlsurf said:
Oh, and just for your information, if you are interested, they quit making the single shot shotguns. .
No they haven't, they just quit making cheap single shot shotguns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,770 Posts
There are published subsonic loads. I just loaded 50 rounds of 1.125 oz of #8 shot at 1090 fps and they absolutely crushed trap birds from both the 16 and 20 yard lines. The main thing you have to watch out for is that 1090 fps is subsonic on a 100 degree day but when the air temperature drops to freezing, it may no longer be subsonic. I have experienced this when shooting "subsonic" .22 ammo one bitter cold day and curiously, the supersonic "whip crack" noise presented itself. What's subsonic on a hot summer day may become supersonic when the air temperature is colder.
The speed of sound is about 1086 fps at 0 degrees C and 1165 fps at 40 degrees C. (32 F and 104F)
When you cut the air temperature in half, you reduce the speed of sound not one half but by the square root of one half, .7071.
So if the speed of sound is 1086 fps at 0 C (273 degrees above absolute zero) and you cut that in half (136.5 degrees above absolute zero or -136.5C) the speed of sound will only be 768 fps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
B.L.E. said:
gehlsurf said:
Oh, and just for your information, if you are interested, they quit making the single shot shotguns. .
No they haven't, they just quit making cheap single shot shotguns.
Yeah, I guess I should've Stated that, and in fact, they DO still make cheap single shots, the Rossi, but as for price, quality, etc. H&R is the ruler of the single shot world, in many people's opinion. So finding these is more so what I was saying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'll keep that in mind B.L.E, thanks for the info. I live in Florida, so luckily I'm pretty much at sea level all the time and temp never hits 0, 45 is considered freezing here, haha, and can be only 5 or 6 days a year at that temp during the day.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top