That mall shooting in Omaha

If I caught some little [email protected]@rd in a public place about to murder some people and I had the oppertunity to drop the hammer on the son of a ***** you can bet a years pay I'll do it. After I'm sure I'm right, I'll drop the hammer on just about anything. (Thank god a human hasn't presented this problem yet). I took my dad, who has much more hunting experience than I do, deer hunting a few years ago. I really wanted him to kill a deer so I put him on a stand where we'd seen a few big bucks. I left him with my .270, and hoped when I came back we'd be dragging out a buck. I went to my stand, and didn't see anything, and I went to pick him up. He said he'd seen one but didn't shoot at it. I asked him how big. He said he'd looked through the scope and counted 8 or to points :shock: He said he just didn't want to shoot it, that he wasn't sure it was the right thing to do :roll: That's the last time I'll invite him deer hunting on that stand :wink:

BT

First of all, I would contend that ALL humans have the right to concealed carry for self defense. It is not a gift from the government, it is a natural right. Many governments refuse to recognize that right and prescribe severe penalties if they apprehend you exercising it. It is failure to understand this fundamental truth that causes so many people to allow the restrictive laws to come into existence and stand unchallenged.

Alaska and perhaps New Hampshire (correct me if I err) are the only two States where this principle is at least tacitly understood. And many in law enforcement wring their hands about it. Does it make their job more dangerous? Probably not, because if a criminal thinks he needs to carry, he will do so without regard to any law to the contrary.

Illinois, like many other parts of the country suffered through the Prohibition and gangster era of the 20s and 30s. People's reaction to the likes of Big Al gave the gun controllers of the day more clout than the temperance movement. And the voting majority of the state is cut from the same bolt of cloth as the voting majority in California or Massachussets on this and many other political issues. So I don't see any relief on the horizon for your interest in concealed carry.

About engaging the shooter, a responsible armed person able to find suitable cover from which to direct fire toward the shooter without jeopardizing anyone else would probably do so. And in so doing, even if he was unable to neutralize the shooter, he would probably draw the shooter's attention away from those attempting escape, and buy them a few precious seconds. To me, it is unconscionable that the Rentacops were unarmed. What kind of "security" is that? That is nothing but an open invitation to the next fruitcake that wants all the publicity that the press so generously provides. I would like to know how any person other than the greedy press benefitted from wide distribution of this person's identity. I think if we have gun control, we should have a little press control as well. I do not think it should be lawful to disseminate the identity of a killer in such situations. As long as the nut cases think they can get fifteen seconds in the sun, courtesy of the press, there are going to be more of these events. At this very moment the next one may be imagining himself in the limelight.

There are laws that prohibit newspapers and the media from printing the names of juveniles in court cases, and by common consent, if not by law, the media will not usually report the names of alleged victims of sexual assaults.

The public has a right to know about crimes, but absolutely no right to know the name, see the picture, or in any way have personal information about a "publicity killer" such as this.

Looneys like this do these crimes for the publicity and nothing else. I'm not for passing laws restricting the freedom of the press, but responsible journalists should be goaded by an outraged public to STOP reporting the name, identity, or any information whatsoever about a "publicity killer". In addition, the media should have a "one day lid" on the story, and not beat it to death for days.

These aren't terrorist attacks. They are done because the killer absolutely knows that he'll be famous after he's dead. For once in his miserable life, he knows he'll matter, and the entire nation, even the world, will see his face, hear his family and friends, and know his life story. We need to remove this motive. The media needs to do it voluntarily.[/i]

Nebraska finally passed a CCW law last year. Only about 2 or 3 thousand have signed up however which is disapointing. There are some problems with it as there always is with new legislation.

When I took my CCW class the instructor told a story about a mall shooting where two people had weapons. One shouted stop and was shot the second said he just could not do it and was shot. He said the guy looked like a kid. I bet they said they would never hesitate or have a problem either.

Spacegold it is Vermont that allows anyone to carry without any kind of permit.

Thing that is silly about the whole ccw issue is I have to look at the recent legislation in each state I may be going through to see if I can carry or not. Seems to me it should be universal but as a person for states rights I guess this is the downside.

I live in Council Bluffs Iowa, just across the Missouri river from Omaha Nebraska. I have sat in the atrium of the Von Maur store at the Westroads shopping center, waiting for my wife to finish shopping more times than I can count. It is her favorite store. Two of the people shot are from my town, one was killed and the other appears will live after very nearly bleeding out from his wounds.

As Chaco said Nebraska has CCW law now, but the problem is that every business is allowed to ban CCW permit holders from carrying on their property. Every where I go in Omaha there are little pictures of handguns with a red circle around it and a red line through it, stuck on the doors. The universal sign for, you can't carry here! Every business I have heard comment about this says we don't want our customers to be upset by seeing someone carrying a gun. All I can say is, HOW UPSET ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS NOW, YOU FOOLS? And what good is a CCW law that won't let you carry anywhere?

This particular incident happened so fast, that it is doubtful a lawful carrier could have reacted in time, but you never know, they may have been able to save some of the people. This wacko started shooting with a SKS or an AK, I forget which, the moment he stepped off the elevator on the third floor, and shot his way to the customer service counter, and the atrium where the escalators are located, which is smack in the middle of the store. Where he then shot himself.

I hate to say it, but maybe we are going to have to return to the old west days where all the store clerks will have to carry a weapon, most of the people killed were clerks, and they would have been the only ones with a real chance of stopping the guy. Security people just could not react fast enough from where ever it is that they were. I am also quite sure that the Westroads Mall Security Personnel are not even armed with more than pepper spray.

All that I know for sure is that this Christmas season has certainly had a large wet blanket thrown over it here in my community, and I pray the family's of the victims will some how be able to get through this ordeal with our support.

Best regards,

Jeff

shotgunnut said:

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As Chaco said Nebraska has CCW law now, but the problem is that every business is allowed to ban CCW permit holders from carrying on their property. Every where I go in Omaha there are little pictures of handguns with a red circle around it and a red line through it, stuck on the doors. The universal sign for, you can't carry here! Every business I have heard comment about this says we don't want our customers to be upset by seeing someone carrying a gun. All I can say is, HOW UPSET ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS NOW, YOU FOOLS? And what good is a CCW law that won't let you carry anywhere?
Jeff

Click to expand...

And the little red circles with the line failed to stop this guy????? Oh, that is right, he wasn't carrying concealed! How utterly discouraging that those little red circles didn't deter him! Some seem to think that should do it!!!

I am not up on NE. laws, but thank God here in MO. even with that little red circle, I think most CCW's continue to carry. The most that can happen here is, that IF your concealment fails and someone ASKS you to leave the store, (they are not going to know if well concealed anyway), drop the stuff that you were considering buying and leave. No arguments, nothing just leave. If and only IF, you argue, can they then call LE to deal with you. At that point, LE maybe can do more, than just ask you to leave. Don't get to that point!

I think I read that the shop owner's posting and the NE. statutes are both in conjunction, (which is MOs as well), but with the above stipulation, ask and don't leave, is what brings in the LE's authority.

Any body know if NE.s actual statute is different, and you get no warning?

I ask because I get to NE. a number of times a year. Also has NE. came up with a recip law/list to date? KS. has and recips with MO. but not Utah. Has to do with the perceived training/qualification of the permit requirements.

Clyde

Here are the pertinent statutes. Looks like if you are caught carrying when it is prohibited, it is a crime.

I think shotgunnut had it right, there was not enough time for anyone in this situation to react.

69-2441. (1)(a) A permitholder may carry a concealed handgun anywhere in Nebraska, except any: Police, sheriff, or Nebraska State Patrol station or office; detention facility, prison, or jail; courtroom or building which contains a courtroom; polling place during a bona fide election; meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or other political subdivision; meeting of the Legislature or a committee of the Legislature; financial institution; professional, or semiprofessional athletic event; building, grounds, vehicle, or sponsored activity or athletic event of any public, private, denominational, or parochial school or private or public university, college, or community college; place of worship; hospital, emergency room, or trauma center; political rally or fundraiser; establishment having a license issued under the Nebraska Liquor Control Act that derives over one-half of its total income from the sale of alcoholic liquor; place where the possession or carrying of a firearm is prohibited by state or federal law; a place or premises where the person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or employer in control of the property has prohibited permitholders from carrying concealed handguns into or onto the place or premises; or into or onto any other place or premises where handguns are prohibited by law or rule or regulation.
(b) A financial institution may authorize its security personnel to carry concealed handguns in the financial institution while on duty so long as each member of the security personnel, as authorized, is in compliance with the Concealed Handgun Permit Act and possesses a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued pursuant to the act.
(2) If a person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or an employer in control of the property prohibits a permitholder from carrying a concealed handgun into or onto the place or premises and such place or premises are open to the public, a permitholder does not violate this section unless the person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or employer in control of the property has posted conspicuous notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited in or on the place or premises or has made a request, directly or through an authorized representative or management personnel, that the permitholder remove the concealed handgun from the place or premises. A permitholder carrying a concealed handgun in a vehicle into or onto any place or premises does not violate this section so long as the handgun is not removed from the vehicle while the vehicle is in or on the place or premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons who are permitholders from carrying concealed handguns in vehicles owned by the employer.
(3) A permitholder shall not carry a concealed handgun while he or she is consuming alcohol or while the permitholder has remaining in his or her blood, urine, or breath any previously consumed alcohol or any controlled substance as defined in section 28-401. A permitholder does not violate this subsection if the controlled substance in his or her blood, urine, or breath was lawfully obtained and was taken in therapeutically prescribed amounts.
Sec. 2. Section 69-2443, Revised Statutes Cumulative Supplement, 2006, is amended to read:

NE ST § 69-2443 >>

69-2443. (1) A permitholder who violates subsection (1) or (2) of section 69- 2440 or section 69-2441 or 69-2442 is guilty of a Class III misdemeanor for the first violation and a Class I misdemeanor for any second or subsequent violation.
(2) A permitholder who violates subsection (3) of section 69-2440 is guilty of a Class I misdemeanor.
(3) A permitholder convicted of a violation described in subsection (1) or (2) of this section may also have his or her permit revoked.

Seems pretty similar, yet here the class instructors, (maybe off the record), say not to sweat the red circles in general. Who is going to know, if it is concealed well anyway?

Only if you had to use it, and then I, (as the instructors said), would rather have it than not, that, or only some medical emergency, like a heart attack, would anyone ever know!

I do see that NE. says "financial institutions", I guess banks. I first thought the same here, but not so. I carry into my bank, no signs even. I moved my accounts from the last one, just because of those little red circles, and let them know that they had a "killing field", there. Even the branch manager agreed with me, when I explained just where she was working.

They had the tellers, (and the money), totally out of sight, not in the lobby at all, and doing business, through the "drive up" type vacuum tubes and TV monitors. The lobby had lots of "clerk" types, no guards and they and the public were just "sitting ducks!"

Tells one just what they think of their customers, and most of the employees! Fodder!

Clyde

Thirty some years ago, it was quite popular to hi jack an airliner and force the plane to go to Cuba. The media reported each hi jacking with glee. But, by September 11, 2001, hi jackings were unheard of in the United States, and there hadn't been one in about twenty years.

Why did we once have a hi jacking problem,and then we didn't? How did we fix it?

First and foremost, the Feds managed to put enough armed plainclothes sky marshalls on jetliners that the sky marshalls shot a string of hijackers dead, in the air, and the media wasn't given the names of the dead hi jackers. The reporting then became something along the lines of "Another hijacker shot dead today. In more news, Brother Billy Carter shoots his mouth off yet again." This seemed to take a lot of the fun out of hi jacking airplanes.

Also, the airlines put in metal detectors. It wasn't so easy to pack a gun on an airplane.

Even Fidel Castro seemed to get embarrassed with being the recipient of hi jacked airplanes. Say what you will about Fidel, but he's a devoted, true believing Communist. Ruthless he is , but he doesn't have a string of palaces, Swiss bank accounts, and mistresses. He didn't want the Cuban revolution tied up with these freelance wackos, so he started refusing them permission to land.

It wasn't long before "skyjacking" was unheard of. The next time anyone did it was September 11, and then they used the old skyjackers playbook to assure the passengers they were going to land, when their intention was to turn the plane into a weapon. By then, sky marshalls were not on any planes, because there wasn't a skyjacking threat anymore.

There are at least two lessons from the skyjacking episodes that apply to mall shooters, school shooters, and other "publicity shooters".

1. The only way in the world to stop such wackos after the bullets start flying is with armed force, and the best way to do that is with people wearing concealed weapons. They can be hired officers, or they can be good citizens, or better yet a mix of both. Give the rent a cop a visible gun, and the rent a cop becomes the first one shot. The bad guys need to wonder which one, or how many, of the good guys have a gun.

2. We simply have to limit the publicity that motivates these wackos. The ideal report would read "Another mall shooter shot dead today. In more news, Britney Spears does something else self destructive". :lol:

Good stuff and I agree with Jug and Spacegold on most of their post.

But I think I missed something in translation.
I thought we were discussing "CONCEALED"
How do we even consider others being able to see our weapons? It should not even be a consideration unless as Jug and Space have said we have to use it.
I have never been more serious about anything in my life guys. Put it on and out of site and it will be there when and if you need it.

Some of you may want to go back and read the story about the Lubies cafeteria shootings many years ago. Read the results of the decision of the lady who left her gun in her truck because she did not yet have her CCW. She watched her dad among others being shot to death systematically and could do nothing about it.

BTW, I am glad someone took the time to post the NE laws so we could see what the penalty is for carrying without a permit or for being where you are not supposed to be with a gun.
Guys it is a misdemeanor. It will be a $65 fine IF YOU REFUSE TO LEAVE AND A COP IS CALLED. I believe someone said if your gun is spotted for some reason and you are asked to leave, drop your sh%*t and leave right then and there. NO charge and no fine.
I'll take that any day for the peace of mind.
But as I mentioned and more importantly no one should ever see your gun unless the worst thing imaginable happens. Then it will not matter except to survive.
We all know what we are carrying, where we are going, what our activity will be when we get there and what we need to wear in order to CONCEAL our gun.
Get your full dress on and do whatever you are going to be doing in front of your full length mirror at home, make necessary adjustments and then go out and do what you gotta do.

Under NO circumstances do I go without my weapon. Except as others said I have to go to one of my meetings with DPS, or to a city council meeting. They have those meetings posted and have alarms and security.
If things were not bad enough, they are getting worse and we who carry and train and are willing to do whatever is necessary to keep ourselves and our loved ones alive are the only thing that will stop or terminate a threat until the police arrive.

Someone asked if anyone had ever had to use their weapon. I am not sure what difference that makes but the answer in my case is yes. I have in fact been shot, shot at on three occassions and had to shoot back on one.
The only thing that made me aware of is how horribly fast this THING will happen, how helpless you will be no matter what, how much luck you need to go along with training and everything else, how terrified a human can be and still function, (see training and practice above), how bad it hurts and how horrible everything is afterrward. I will tell you this my friends, I don't give a big rats *** how tough you are, if it happens and you survive, you will NEVER be the same, NEVER.
So in addition to having your weapons and being very, very good with them, you better have your affairs in order with Him, and hope you have a very good support group such as your family and friends, (you will very quickly find out who they are and what they think about you when the lites of the tv cameras come on), and have all your insurance up to date.

Jug and Space are correct, and shotgunut as well.
Put it on and know how to use it and when you are legal to do so.
You will never have amore helpless feeling that I can imagine than to NEED it and not have it. People talk about nightmares, I had/have them and it is the same one all the time. Make it stop or go away. You can't make it stop soon enough and I also wonder what I would have done if I had not had the tool and ability to at least try to save my life. I cannot imagine.

I will say this also;

If you , (anyone) does not take the time to train and to have and carry a weapon and be willing to do what ever is necessary to defend (yourself) then you have no right to call the cops to defend your worthless butt, period. If YOU are not willing and ready to defend yourself why do you think a cop should put his/her life on the line for you? Their life is worth less than yours or mine. I am and I do and if you don't then don't tie up the cops when they could be put to good use helping me and my family..
Last, but not least you can all do what you want and probably will. But I will NOT work to save someone else that I do not know. The situation in the mall is different I would do what I had to do to save me and mine. But normally I will be the best witness you ever had if you survive what ever is happening to you. I don't know you or how you got into the situation. In fact if I come upon you being attacked I would be a fool to intervene as I don't know which of you is the good and bad guy to begin with.
I can give you a real bad story with a texas narc who was shot and killed by a CCW holder who thought he was the bad guy while he was trying to arrest a prostitute and druggie.
My carry and what I do if God forbid it ever happens again are for me and my loved ones. I am not a cop any longer.

I wish you all the very best and I hope you get real serious about carrying and defending yourself. But simply put, you can't if you don't have it with you and ready to go in a nano- second I can tell you from personal experience.

Someone asked if he really thought he could do it. I say you WILL do whatever it takes to save your life. You will NOT stand and shoot someone full of holes just for the hell of it. In fact just the opposite, you will probably not shoot as much as you should, but you will do what it takes if you have thought about it and trained for it and have the means to do it.

UF

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Now and again the police shoot other cops, undercover cops, and innocent people in general. They dont mean to. When this happens they loose their jobs quite a bit of the time, and even go to prison, sometimes.

I'm curious to know what happened to the Texas CCW permit holder that shot the undercover narc. Betcha the authorities were'nt willing to chalk it all up to an understandable mistake. :wink:

I understand the need for undercover officers. But they should be the rare exception, and not the rule. Police officers ought to look like police officers, wearing their guns on holsters, in uniform, in marked police cruisers, unless there is no other choice. Officers wearing camo, dressed like ninjas, or disguising themselves as scumballs doesn't endear the police to the general public.

But then again, maybe I watched too much Dragnet, Adam 12, and Mayberry R.F.D. growing up.
:lol: