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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Can a shotgun such as the Mossberg 590 be used as a primary fighting weapon -- equivalent to the Main Battle Rifle?

What would be the advantages of the shotgun?

Disadvantages would seem obvious: range, recoil, and weight of ammunition.

Will a shotgun stand up to heavy use under battlefield conditions?

If you think it is feasible, what shotgun would you choose, and what, if any additional equipment?
 
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I once wondered that myself. To my disapointment the answer was NO. Shotguns would never be/equivalent to a MBR.
. Shotgun factors, that you mentioned,
are very poor in this type of situation.

Disadvantages;
1.bullet weight-1 to 1-1/4 ounce to heavy to carry alot of. Not to mention the nearly .75" diameter of them and they are as long as rifle bullets.. (30-06 180 grs. vs. 12 gauge 385-400 grs.)
2.bullet trajectory-at 300 yds. a .223 (5.56) has more power than a slug or sabot. also at this same distance a slug has dropped 25"-35". Plus: targets (with an M-16(5.56)) have been sucessfully engaged at 1000 yards!! At such distances, although fairly weak, a .223 bullet carries 313 ft-lbs
and is traveling at 1600 FPS(not to much slower than the sabot starts at the muzzle).
3.magizine capacity-probably 20 at most in a banana type magizine (beyond this is just to much).
4.Recoil-average sporting clay loads kick some 10-14 ft-lbs per shot. A .223's recoil is nearly half; 5-6 ft-lbs.
Now us duck hunters expierience some 30-40 ft-lbs per shot.
Geese and turkey hunters get it the worst any where from 40-90 ft-lbs.

Advantages- close quarter situations. plenty of power for close engagements.

Sure some well built ones(ex. Benelli M4, Rem. models, Moss. models, some built in future) may be more than capable to withstanding the conditions of war. But they just dont have a NEED for them. The rifle cover all the shotgun's weaknesses.

Up to the task? currently the Benneli M4 is the Joint Services shotgun (correct me if im wrong). The way it comes is more than acceptable. Basically its better and it replaces the mossberg 590 because the inertia recoil system it operates with wont not work because of heavy scopes/night vision mounted on the gun.

Sorry i didnt answer your questions in the simple and most direct way, but there ya' have it.
(most of the above is personal preferance/opinion)
Thank y'all
-Caesar
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I concur with your analysis. However, as an aside, I don't think the .223 has anywhere near that punch at a 1000 yards. Here's what I have --

5.56 NATO (XM16E1):

Bullet Weight = 55 grains
Nominal Muzzle Velocity = approximately 3185 fps
Muzzle Energy = 1239 ft. lbs.
Muzzle Energy at 500 yds. = 252 ft. lbs.
 
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Actually those are very accurate figures......
But in a very ideal enviroment. You see; the application i used to get these figures starts out with sea level altitude, no wind,
no atmospheric pressure, etc. If i was to add the above factors so that they are true to enviroment, im sure it would be 252 ft-lbs at 500 yds.

Thanks for the heads up though mushroom :wink:
-Caesar
 

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The combat shotgun is designed for one purpose - close quarters battle. It does this better than any other weapon and not meant to supercede other weapons for other purposes. Slugs are a secondary ammunition option for combat purposes. A combat shotgun is intended to be used with buckshot for one-shot stops.

The trench broom was used in World Wars I & II to exterminate fascist pigs. It was usually a Winchester 1897 or Model 12 with the barrel trimmed to 20" and a heat shield added to it. Sometimes, they had bayonets. Could you imagine the satisfaction of impaling a Nazi with a pig sticker and then blowing its guts out?! :twisted:

The military and the police wouldn't use shotguns if they were useless. But they do use them. No pistol can substitute for it or match its wicked awesome stopping power - assuming it's used within its intended ranges (room-length distances).

Of course, you have to factor in buckshot's lack of penetration against armored enemies. But then, buckshot is meant to shred, not to penetrate. That's why it's so great for home defense. It has high stopping power and low penetration.

Disregarding price or availability, my top choice for a combat shotgun would be a modified Franchi SPAS-15 (select-fire: semi-auto/pump-action). It would have a 14" barrel with a fixed Modified choke, would accept 8-round box mags, and the end of the receiver would be modified to accept an adapter for a Knoxx CopStock.

I came up with several ideas for combination guns. One of these ideas is a bullpup shotgun combined with a submachine gun. The shotgun would take 10-round box mags and would be semi-auto only. The submachine gun would be mounted below it in the style of an HK XM-29 Phase-III OICW. The magazine well would be in the grip. It would be modelled after the Steyr TMP, would be select-fire (semi, tri, and full-auto), and would have a forearm grip similar to the HK Kurz grip.

The entire unit would have dual triggers so there would be no clumsy selector switch to mess around with (this would also make the mechanism less complex). The front trigger would operate the shotgun and the rear trigger would operate the subgun. It would be available in left- and right-handed configs and would be available in different gauge/caliber combos, including but not limited to: 10, 12, and 20 gauge / 9mm, 5.7mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .224 BOZ.

I know it's just a pipe dream but maybe some day someone will take a liking to my ideas.
 
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No a shotgun cannot double as a main battle rifle, it lacks the requisite range, long distance power and precision. An MBR is a rifle firing a full size / full power cartridge, the 5.56 and 7.62x39 don't qualify, neither does the 12 Ga. past 75-100 yards.
 

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Interesting discussion.... about 35 years ago, I was a LRRP in Vietnam with the Big Red One. Point man carried a sawed-off Model 12 with 00 Buck. The Model 12 was preferred for two reasons: 6 down and 1 up for a total of 7 rounds, and you could hold the trigger back and pump it. Slack (2nd man in squad) carried a CAR-15, and the third man carried an M-60 (7.62 Machine Gun).
 

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Iggy Hazard said:
I came up with several ideas for combination guns. One of these ideas is a bullpup shotgun combined with a submachine gun. The shotgun would take 10-round box mags and would be semi-auto only. The submachine gun would be mounted below it in the style of an HK XM-29 Phase-III OICW. The magazine well would be in the grip. It would be modelled after the Steyr TMP, would be select-fire (semi, tri, and full-auto), and would have a forearm grip similar to the HK Kurz grip.

The entire unit would have dual triggers so there would be no clumsy selector switch to mess around with (this would also make the mechanism less complex). The front trigger would operate the shotgun and the rear trigger would operate the subgun. It would be available in left- and right-handed configs and would be available in different gauge/caliber combos, including but not limited to: 10, 12, and 20 gauge / 9mm, 5.7mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .224 BOZ.

I know it's just a pipe dream but maybe some day someone will take a liking to my ideas.
Why would you combine 2 short-range weapons together? Both subguns and shotguns have limited range. The only use I can think of for it, would be to have instant access to a ****** to shoot out hinges/locks, but that problem would be solved by giving one man in the fireteam a shotgun. Wouldn't be worth the development/logistics/weight.
 

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JiM70 hit it on the head... by definition, a main battle rifle must have range, precision, and power.

Weapons like the M-16A2 (5.56mm) and AK-74 (5.45mm) are actually classified as assault rifles, not MBRs. Assault rifles typically have larger magazine capacities, lighter and smaller cartridges, and less effective range than MBRs. Most countries have moved towards assault rifles rather than MBRs because they found engagements typically happen at less than 300 meters, and the smaller rounds have a logistical advantage of being able to provide larger volume for the same weight/space.

A shotgun has significantly less range than an assault rifle. Even a 28" rifled barrel shooting sabots can't hit point (man-sized) targets at 500 meters like an M-16A2 can, so there is really no way that it could be apart of the main battle rifle class, which can consistantly hit harder and at greater distances than assault rifles.
 

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Why would you combine 2 short-range weapons together? Both subguns and shotguns have limited range. The only use I can think of for it, would be to have instant access to a ****** to shoot out hinges/locks, but that problem would be solved by giving one man in the fireteam a shotgun. Wouldn't be worth the development/logistics/weight.
It would be better suited to police acquisitions rather than military. But there could also be a rifle/shotgun combination gun - one that outdoes the shortcomings of the Crossovers.

Just imagine a civilian-legal version of the HK XM-29 OICW! :D In place of the smart cannon, it would have a 10-gauge shotgun that takes 8-round box mags (12-gauge version also available that would take 10-round box mags). Instead of the range-finder and scope, it would have a diopter (calibrated for the rifle) and a Weaver-type integral scope rail. It would have a non-detachable 5.56mm AR-type carbine (compatible with AR-type mags) with a 16 1/2-inch barrel. And it would be available in both right-handed and left-handed configurations.

Another idea I had was inspired by the side-fed receiver design of the FG-42 and the detachable mag shotgun design of the Valtro PM-5. Imagine a side-fed assault rifle (I know the FG-42 was a 7.92x57mm battle rifle) combined with an integral pump-action shotgun mounted underneith. Unlike the Knight Masterkey, however, this shotgun would take bottom-fed detachable box mags and would be integral with the overall design.

It would have dual triggers with a single safety.
 

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main battle rifles use full power cartridges (.303, .30-06, 8mm, 7.92mm, 7.62mm, 7.5mm, 6.5mm etc.) to accurately engage targets with aimed fire out to as far as 1,000 yards.

shotguns cannot do what main battle rifles do. they really can't do what the MBR's replacement, the assault rifle, does either.

post WW2 studies showed that troops rarely engaged targets beyond 200 yards. this, combined with "fire and manuever" tactics (part of a unit would lay down a volume of fire while the other part would try to work around an enemy's flank) was one of the justifications for the shift to the semi- or fully automatic assault rifle in .223/5.56mm. Long range not necessary, but lots and lots of ammunition is.

shotguners cannot carry enough ammunition for these tactics, nor can they accurately engage even at the reduced range of 200 yards. and don't forget, the 5.56mm bullet will tumble and fragment when it enters a body, making it far more destructive than the more stable MBR bullets. I'd guess its also more destructive at 200 yards than a slug.

on the other hand, if I were in a trench or clearing buildings, I'd want someone to have a 12 ga. pump with all the buckshot he could carry.
 

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What about specialized ammo? Wouldn't flechettes, grapeshot, incindiaries, flares, armor piercing (all those things that us in California can only wonder about...) have some use in the battlefield? I can only speculate.

CW :?:
 

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Cold Warrior said:
What about specialized ammo? Wouldn't flechettes, grapeshot, incindiaries, flares, armor piercing (all those things that us in California can only wonder about...) have some use in the battlefield? I can only speculate.

CW :?:
Flares are more often launched via M203 grenade launchers (40mm, mounted onto an M16) or by artillery (which can illuminate an entire battlefield)

As for armor piercing, well the military already uses full metal jacket ammunition which already lends itself to high penetration and lower bullet deformation upon impact.

Rifle rounds and even lots of handgun rounds can easily penetrate the bodies of vehicles, for example. If you shoot 5.56mm rounds at a car, they will penetrate through the glass/doors. They may lose velocity and change direction, but they will penetrate. Almost all rifle rounds will already penetrate the U.S. current issue body armor (level IIIA) if the rifle plates are not installed.

Even if the assault rifles or SAW don't provide enough chewing power, the medium machine gun's 7.62 should provide the punch for that. Above that, the .50 BMG will eat up anything other than a tank. And all of this is at VERY LONG RANGE. (If I remember right, the grazing fire of the M2 .50 cal is 800 meters. That means that if you fire a bullet, it's path will stay between knee level and neck level for 800 meters. So basically you can just sweep back and forth, and not even make any changes in elevation until 800 meters....). So if I'm trying to hit an armored vehicle, I don't think I'd want an shotgun with 8 shells in it, fancy armor piercing or not. I'd rather light it up with an AT-4, .50 cal, and a MK-19 grenade launcher if possible.

Shotguns with incendiary ammunition? I can't really see a purpose to that, or a use.
 

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This is off topic but i just wanted to throw it out there. I noticed wwb said he was a LRRP in vietnam, and i just happen to be reading a book atm called War Paint by Bill Goshen who was LRRP for the Big Red One as well. Its a pretty good book, just are any that chronicle true heroism. Ive never served in the military and i am not drawn to it, but i do have a great respect for those who have fought for our country. Anyways i just wanted to say thanks to all those out there who have served in our armed forces :)

Oh and on topic:
shotguns indoors good, shotguns outdoors bad.
 
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