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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last Sunday I was shooting with some folks who hadn't seen a Super X. They had nice guns, a late model Citori and a Beretta 391 Technys. We started talking guns, and one of them told me how difficult it was to clean his Beretta.

To show off, I unscrewed the mag cap of my Super X, took off the gas piston, and used the gas piston to punch out the receiver pin, and the trigger group just falls out in your hand. Then you take the bolt out with the same gas piston, depressing the follower with the piston. I laid all the parts on the table. Took something less than a minute. Made the Beretta look like some overly complicated, gadgety new aluminum and plastic gun for the masses.

The Super X looked like some ultra high dollar exotic, heavy built target gun beside the Technys. If Kolar or Krieghoff built a gas auto, it would be a Super X Model One.

There's no good substitute for a genuine Super X Model One when it comes to a target gun. They look good, handle great, go bang every time, clean easier than any repeating gun ever made, don't kick much, and every little part on them is quality,,,,and it shows. My Super X sat there gleaming in the afternoon sun, and I knew why I'd left my Beretta 391's and all such at home.

As good as modern auto shotguns are, and have become,,,they'll never hold a candle to the real thing as devoted purpose target guns. :wink:
 

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I've gotta agree. I bought one because I was SO impressed with the quality of the parts in the gun. But, behold, I soon found out that they HANDLE VERY WELL and they FUNCTION.

Just for example: The link that connects the slide to the recoil spring follower is STEEL and very robust. Hard to imagine it breaking like the ones in Beretta's do. Also unlike Beretta, the carrier is MACHINED STEEL. Ever heard of "bent carrier syndrome" on an SX1? You won't. So, after 30 some years of engineering advancement, we now have the Beretta Teknys???????? WTF??????? :shock:
 

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I agree. I absolutely love mine. Wish I'd discovered them years ago.

Mine's a field grade shooter choked .005 and I don't feel improperly armed using it for my two most common shooting activities, dove and skeet. Until I get a steel shot approved gun I just might use it for the rare waterfowl hunt I might encounter or as a back up steel shot gun out west for pheasant. .005 should be plenty good for most pheasant shots with steel without causing any barrel damage. If I never find another I'm just fine with this one...but...I lust after a nice set of skeet wood and more pristene bluing if ever I run across an affordable one and the time is right. I wouldn't want to carry it all day for mile after mile in the uplands, but I wouldn't feel handicapped doing so. I might be a little more tired and a tad slower getting it into play after a few hours but I'd still feel confident shooting it and be glad to have it along, all eight pounds of it!

When I first got mine (not too long ago) and learned how to dissasemble the gas system I didn't have much trouble doing so. But lately I'm having a harder time getting the piston assembly apart and then back together after cleaning (more trouble getting it apart than back together). I think i may have slightly "sprung" the ("split ring with tab thing?") that holds the piston on to the ("gas assembly tube?") but it still functions fine and is still way easier to clean than my old 391 Urika and feels way better to boot. Sorry for the lack of proper nomenclature terminology...I've misplaced my copy of the owner's manual which properly named the parts. I'm not real mechanical, so my dissasembly diffuculty is probably just me.
 

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I would have never thought of using the gas piston to disassemble the gun, great idea. I guess pretty much with a small punch (or the gas piston), a Phillips screwdriver for the recoil pad/butt plate and a heavier screwdriver or socket to take off the stock bolt you have all the tools you need to dissasemble the gun into its major components.

The components of a SX1 are robust even when compared to the best repeating shotguns out there like A5s and Model 12s and 31s.

I have mostly collected lumber and small spare parts for mine, but I am interested in getting a bolt assembly, trigger group and gas system and getting Americase to build a custom case with slots for the spare compenents and extra barrels. That would set me up for the next 100 years or so!

Of course, I couldn't really justify the cost of such a project. In the last 20 years the only parts I have had to change on my SX1 are the bolt buffer and o ring.
 

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Grouse gunner

You are not levering circlip off are you - if you want to remove piston head grasp sleeve in one hand and head in other and twist -you will feel tag come out of slot - the tag has a ramp on one side -twist it that way then pull off - put it on by putting tag on sleeve first then push head on while turning and it will click into place -- hope this isn't teaching gran ma to suck egg's.

dave
 

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model 50 is easier.
take off f.a.
pull the bbl.
pull the chamber.
clean. reassemble.
no pistons, no rings, no assembly order to remember.
and NO PLASTIC.
as much as i love sxm1's, after shooting the 50, im sold on M50's. havent touched my sxm1 in 3 years.
pre 64's are the way to go.
:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
bobski, I'll agree that the 20 gauge Model 50 is the finest 20 gauge target autoloader ever made. I have one. Cause they only made the Super X in 12 gauge. :wink:

There are only two quibbles about the Model 50. First, I've yet to own one that didn't have an aluminum trigger guard. Maybe they made some with milled steel, but I haven't owned one yet. Second, while it's easy to remove the barrel and the chamber, it's an outrageous PITA to remove the bolt and the trigger group. To the point where I just don't.

The Model 50 is the Rodney Dangerfield of Pre 64 Winchesters, and gets no respect. I love em. They make nice field guns, too. Winchester made about 200,000 of them, and yet I hardly ever see one in the pawn shops. When I do, I usually buy them, as they are silly cheap for the quality you get. And, that short recoil system sure cuts felt recoil, at least for my shoulder.

I've had a really hard time selling my Model 50's for anything approaching a good price. I once tried to sell a gorgeous trap grade Model 50 with a Simmons rib and Winchokes in a sleeve, and finally had to take something like $250 to get it to move. But I didn't loose any money, either. I've quit selling them. From now on I only buy. :wink:
 

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sxm1's are fine guns. but they are mechanical. they have parts. and the more parts there are, the more can go wrong. nu-line wouldnt be in business if this wasnt true.
figure 90,000 +/- sxm1's to 190,000+/- M50's in about the same run time. M50 was 1954 to 1960(6 years). sxm1 was 1974 to 1981 (7 years)
the M50 was double the production in the same time frame. that means the odds say that there shouldnt be any working M50's left on earth based on mass production errors, heavy use from popularity, wear, and damage, and being 20 years old when the sx came out. yet when you see them, save for cracked wood, most are working. worn finish? yes why? they were reliable and they worked! i would say the #1 main parts issue on a M50 is the recoil spring. pain to change? yes. but how often? and guess what folks, NO PLASTIC BUFFERS NEEDED.
bolts on m50's can be cleaned in place with gun scrubber. no need to take em out every day to clean. drop the trigger and squirt.
and on the alloy trigger group issue....ive never had a gun fail due to an alloy trigger housing. has anyone on earth? should they have made them steel? sure i agree. but ive never had one fail.

i use to shoot 500 rounds of 1 1/8oz a day out my sxm1 because i was told it was the finest gun made. i believed it. my shoulder didnt. but i ignored it. i tried straight stocks, mc stocks, this pad that pad....i just gave up and shot. motrin was part of my evening meal. gun performed very well. won many titles with it in east/west and doubles matches.
but at what cost?
my 35 year report is as follows:
the stock bolt continually loosened and wood twisted.
3 bolt shock buffers
the stage 1 trigger failed to fire too many times. took out the set screw. then switched to a stage 2 in 1984.
1 bolt action rod recoil spring buffer
2 gas piston spot welds broke (rewelded)
lost one bolt handle
had to reverse the mag tube to restore gas pressure surface area for piston.
6 o rings.
allen screw backed out and the vent rib recoiled off the gun.
bbl ports had to always be cleaned out and crud had to be scribed out of corners in the bbl piston chamber or theyd rust. you know what i mean, right guys? shoot your sxm1 a lot and put it up dirty, pull the bbl off and the piston would stay stuck in the bbl? :(
the bbl extention warped from firing so many rounds, to a point it wouldnt slide in or out of the receiver. i had to hand file it on top to get it to slide in and out, hot or cold. it wouldnt budge.
and the killer at around 850,000, the locking lug wings on my bolt broke. part not stocked. i just changed the whole bolt out.

amazingly...i NEVER had a broken firing pin or worn extractor. sxm1 gets kudos for that. :!:

now 24 years of shooting a M50............
changed the recoil spring.
the center bead flew out.
stock would loosen requiring tightening every summer from expansion and contraction, (until i found the factory upgrade that eliminated that problem in an old shop bulletin and installed it.)

my conclusion?

there IS a substitute for the SXM1. the Model 50. twice as many made, half the trouble. pre 64's are hard to beat. and lest we forget....the sxm1 was the result of people wanting pre 64 quailty in a gun AGAIN. they were harkening back to the day of the M12 and ...the MODEL 50. they got it....but it came with a price. because by the time the problems started to surface, the gun was discontinued already.

im very happy to know that winchester holds the title of best semi autos made. in that light i would agree that there isnt one company out there that can make them better. you wouldnt ever see me holding a euro semi auto. no matter how many big names do trying to promote them.

will i ever sell my shooter sx's? no way. i'll still shoot it. but rest assure i will have parts in the bag where ever i go with it.
:(
close your eyes and have someone hand you an sx. then have them hand you a M50. as much as i hate to admit it...all these years ive been shooting a top heavy off balance gun. if i had known sooner....the M50 would have been in its place. it feels right and is balanced much better than the sx. and when you shake it , it doesnt rattle!

so my point isnt to deflate the sx. fine gun indeed, but i must challenge the claim of no substitute. hope i didnt hurt anyones feelings. i know how guns are like kids and parents do defend them to the death. :D

now...would all the sx owners PLEASE go out and try a M50 skeet or trap gun? prove me wrong. thanks for the time.
 

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That's a nice-looking gun. I saw a 20ga. plain barrel mdl. 50 in a used gun shop for around 300. It was awful heavy, but in retrospect, I'd bet it was sweet on the recoil. I'd like to have one in good shape, for sure. The only thing that bothers me is I don't know how to take one apart and it appears to have a LOT of moving parts, plus I've heard you have to have the barrel "floated??" properly or it will hang up. Just another gun I'd like to have, if I can just talk my wife into getting a couple of more jobs. :D
JBJ
 

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parts?
this guns way too easy.
loosen f.a. screw. off comes f.a.
screw stays in f.a wood held by a ring washer, so it wont get lost like a sxm1 f.a. cap.
twist bbl. bbl pulls out.
close bolt. pull out chamber.
knock one pin out to drop trigger.
thats it!
the reason the bolt and stock is so hard to take off is that it wasnt meant to be taken off. you just douche it out and put it all back together.
heavy is good for recoil. but its not that heavy. its pleasantly balanced.
and if weight is an issue, get the featherweight model. its an alloy receiver. weighs like 6 lbs.
like this one.
http://v2.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte ... =149945477
did the sxm1 come in a standard AND featherweight design? no.
did it come in 20ga? no.
again and only as a challenge to the post....the M50 is a valid substitute.....that doesnt require a full time gun shop that retro fits them and offers aftermarket parts for it.
:wink:
btw...never had a 50 hang up on me. keep it like any other gun should be kept....clean!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I gave two hundred bucks at a gun show for a really nice, low round count twenty gauge Model 50 standard with gorgeous target wood. It has a Simmons vent rib and a Cutts, and somebody cut it off to about 13 3/4 inch LOP if you count the rock hard Pachy White Line recoil pad. It's a genuine skeet gun. Doesn't kick, works like a charm.

I've owned several Model 50's in 12 gauge. I don't think I ever paid more than two hundred bucks for any of them, and they were all cherry. They all worked great, too.
So why aren't they a "cult" gun like the SX1 then?

My guess is that it's the styling. Styling is subjective, it's often said. But why did a 55 Chevy and a 57 Chevy get all the songs written about them, and all the glory,,,,when a 56 Chevy looked so close to them,,,,but you never heard a single song on the radio about "Out in my Old 56"? :wink:
 

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agree.

guns like cars, are usually popular based on how many options, gadgets, upgrades, and modifictions it can hold. people tend never to be satisfied with basics. they tend to like to make things personalized. like adding just one more bulb to a christmas tree thats already drooping with so many.
in that light, the sxm1 is a prime candidate for one more bulb....just like the M12 and 57 chevy was and still is.
i find it amusing to watch people pour so much money into their iron thinking it will improve their game, when old fashioned marksmanship is much cheaper and usually all it takes to improve. i fell for it on my guns. but now that im older, i find myself behind a basic M50 and doing just as well if not better.

the case of the sxm1 is one that people need to realize. most of the upgrades made for the sxm1 arent to personalize or to improve scores, they are to improve function. thats where the 50 and sx part ways. the 50 doesnt need to improve function. it works. youd think the 50 would have been personalized out the ying yang with people who like to spent money on a gun that works fine....to make it personal. but they didnt. even with the factory offering 5 levels of factory engraving, pigeon grades and factory engraved 50's are rare.

the 50 is a sleeper. true. give it time. i think with time, a new generation will relearn the values of the 50, as the sxm1's dry up. based on current factory sxm1's wearing out and being shot out, odds are very soon, the only ones left will be the ones that were retro fitted with aftermarket parts to keep them alive....while the 50's keep clunking along in original condition. :wink:

oh, and on a lighter note, the model 50 was made when the 55 and 57 chevy were rolling off the production lines in detroit. the sxm1? in 74, cars like the ford pinto, amc gremlin, and chevy vega come to mind. :lol: :p

btw superx, where in mo do you live? n,s,e, or west?

==================================

on a spiritual note, cults are usually the result of people with like interests forming a clan based on bias. even when confronted with other truths, cults stick fast to their belief even in the face of overwhelming facts to disprove them. if someone was never told of the glory of GOD, unfortunately satan makes a good substitute to the ignorant.
if all one is told of is the glory of the SXM1 and never told of the 50.....a sxm1 cult following is formed. just like the 55 or 57 chevy.
companies like bias and cult followings. cults sell their product without any corp effort. some people like associations with certain products. people believe what you are seen with, changes who you are. people drive cars and shoot certain guns to get you to look. factories do it to get you to buy, people do it to boost ego.

in my opinion....who i am is what is posted on the scoreboard.

and who is who, is who is on center court at 8pm on a cool friday oct night in texas.....not what was used to get there.
in the end its ones hope that people will tend to remember the person, not the gun for 30 seconds of fame.

gun companies like it the other way around....so do cults.

some shoes fit, some dont. your ability to dance will be remembered, not the shoes you wore.
 

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The Model 50/59s are outstanding autoloaders. I have five. Two in 12 gauge, a Standard Field 28" plain barrel, Mod. in 99+% condition and Featherweight Field 26" factory vent rib barrel, IC. Two in 20 gauge, one well used and one near mint unfired. Both with 26" plain barrel, WS-1. and one Model 59 with 26" Versalite Choke barrel. They don't have problems if you keep the floating chamber clean.

The main difference in the problems that the SX-1 has and the lack of problems of the Model 50 is not in the reliability of the receivers, they are of the finest steel, it's the difference in the operating system. The M 50's short recoil system is bullet proof, where as the gas system of the SX-1 was not tested long enough to develop the best materials to make it with. Had they been fitted, it the beginning, with the same quality of the aftermarket gas system parts that are now available, there would be all this hand wringing. A gas system just has inherent problems, no matter the make or model.
 

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exactly. thus is the definition of progress.

but i do want to make one minor correction to a perfect post.

the M50 isnt a short recoil action. an example of a short recoil would be a browning double automatic. short recoil guns have recoiling bbls.

the M50 made history by being the first semi auto with a non recoiling bbl.

the M50 is a simple internia blowback. the ejecting shell blows the bolt back not gas, much like a typical 22 semi auto pistol cartridge blows the slide back. yes yes...gas in the bore pushes the hull. but its not bled off a gas system or uses the weight of the recoiling bbl to act as part of the cycling componant.
 

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Before you made corrections, maybe you should do your homework.

The floating chamber is nothing more than a short barrel in relation to the long barrel of a Browning Double Auto. Both are short recoil systems. Both are inertia weight systems.
The floating chamber of the M 50 moves only .08" to .10" to the rear. The barrel of the BDA moves from 1.1" to 1.5" to the rear.
 

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maybe i did jump the gun on words since i was going from memory. so i dug around. winchester calls it a 'recoil operated non recoiling bbl action.'

but then maybe we are both wrong.

so bottom line.

you claim the gun is a 'short recoil' action.

i now recant and claim its a 'recoil operated non recoiling bbl' action.

i claim short recoil actions are systems that incorporate a sliding bbl. and you claim the M50's chamber counts as a short bbl 'sliding', so its a short recoil action on the gun.

but this really comes down to a definition of recoil operated or short recoil operated.

so as not to hyjack sx's fine thread on sxm1's....go do your homework and lets start a discussion on a new thread so we can debate it there. fair? {hs#
 
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