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Hi,
I have a big running setter, 21 months old....ranges further than I'd like in grouse woods...checks in on me, but often gets 60-70 yds out in no time...I've used his collar to keep him in, but sometimes it's a battle as he gets pretty focused and I don't think he's purposefully disobeying, just wrapped up in his searching...and then he loses me, and I call him and he comes ...but ...he's not hunting to the gun as they say...but I wonder if dogs ever really do? Perhaps they're just doing what they are bred to do and somehow get conditioned to hang close. My last setter was much easier to handle, wanted to hang with me all the time, just naturally.
This dog's natural disposition seems more independent...and because he's tall and lanky , those legs take him out there pretty quick..If I could just teach him to walk while hunting at a stepped up pace, he'd be about perfect.
Holds point pretty well , but with grouse as jittery as they are, I've got to keep him closer.

I've done the check cord exercises to condition him to the whistle, bell, etc....hasn't transferred to the woods yet..

Just looking for some creative thinking here, or some similar experiences with solutions that have worked. I have lots of patience to work with techniques, but would feel more confident on a direction if I can relate to someone with a similar training challenge...

thanks,
Terry
 

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Put a beeper collar on him, turn it on (I prefer "point only" mode but some like to use the run/point option), and let him find birds. When he points, go shoot the bird. 70 yards is not all that far out, even in ruffed grouse woods. My Pointer and setters regularly run 100 yards out and often 150, when chasing ruffed grouse. With experience, the dog will learn how far out it can range and still prvide you with shooting opportunities. With bird contacts, the dogs learn to hold their point if you have the discipline to NOT SHOOT birds that are not pointed. If you shoot bumped or inadvertantly flushed birds, you are only encouraging the dog to do shoddy work and not be as staunch as needed. Hacking the dog in to a close range is very trying on all involved, dog and handler plus any others in hearing, and can be detrimental to the dog's willingness to hunt in rare circumstances.
Pointing dogs are bred to be somewhat independent thinkers as they are expected to find birds for the gunners. A dog that is working to the front, checking objectives or quartering as trained, is working for the gun. If you need a dog to work close enough to shoot flushed birds, you would be much better served with a flushing dog as they are much easier to find in close working versions than pointing dogs. If you can live with the dog being out of sight and can refrain from shooting flushed birds, one of the less common versatile breeds may be more your cup of tea. With setters, there are considerably fewer lines that run close, Ryman and Hemlock would be two of the more common ones. Most others are either more towards the larger running trial/test dogs or bench performers.
 

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Well sounds like my fireball; I gotta hit the fields and let him do some wind-sprints out 200 yards or so and back before we start hunting. If he starts really getting out there I give him a nick and bring him back. What a trainer told me to do come spring training season is start working a bird field with planted birds, quail, pigeons, whatever you can get cheap and keep a few in a coup out back to have on hand. So you plant the field with the dog hidden soes he can't watch. Put the birds close to the end of the field that you will enter. If he charges on past when you enter the field you hang back, wait till he hunts and comes back around to find the birds close to you. Hide the dog and plant more birds, again close up, new places of course. Hopefully after plenty of repetitions he figures out he always finds the birds close to you. Since you can go through lots of birds, pigeons work better since they fly home to be used again.
 

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With setters, there are considerably fewer lines that run close, Ryman and Hemlock would be two of the more common ones.
Llewellins are typically known to shorten range in heavy cover (come back). Also, some Red/Irish setter & Gordon setter hunting lines.
 

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mite said:
Llewellyns are typically known to shorten range in heavy cover (come back). Also, some Red/Irish setter & Gordon setter hunting lines.
Ryman and Hemlock are particular lines of predominately Llewellin line setters long noted for their close range. These were the lines often written about by the old time pa'tridge hunters 50+ years ago. Even at that, they will want to range out at least as far as the original poster mentioned. Same for the red/Irish setters and Gordons I've seen. 60-70 yards is rather close range for a pointing dog and very few will regularly work consistently closer as a rule. Llewellin alone is not a very good predicator as many of them do have great range, my current one, when he was younger (nearing 12 years old now with a rebuilt hip he doesn't get around as well as he used to) regularly ran up to a quarter mile in open cover and closed up to about 100 yards or so in heavy cover. The others I've owned or seen were not much less in range as him.
 

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I hunt with a lab and I encounter the same problem. when she gets on the scent she hunts by herself. I have tried e-collar and she is insensitive to it when on the hunt. Later she broke in a little I am not sure how. I think that the hunting place is important to the dog's behaviour. If the bird is a runner and has wide areas to go, my lab is prone to running away. If the place is tighter I can keep her in easier. As the season came to an end she got more on what I wanted from her. I also happened to zap her a few times when working with her off the hunting field and she has more respect to the e-collar now. I can stop her in the tracks more often now with both verbal/whistle commands.
If you do a search for "Lab runs after birds" you may find more input on your question. I have learned that the dog should only work for you and not be allowed to hunt for themselves. Therefore they should do everything you are asking for.
I did not think that a pointing breed would be a problem getting away from you too far becuase they would wait for you when on point.
I am new to all this and ready to learn more.
 

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:) Not being a wise-azz, but you need to be able to deal with a 70-100 yard grouse setter by stretching your own legs a bit more and curbing the dog less. However, if you are a senior like me, maybe you should seriously think "SPANIEL".
JMHO
///olde 8) pharte///
 

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Uglydog, from what I understand, Ryman and Hemlock lines go back further than 50 years to the early part of the 20th century. No doubt they have Llewellin blood in them as most modern english setters do, yet Ryman and Hemlock diverged away from the 'traditional' field setters as they wanted to develop a dual setter for both show and field. The general characteristics of the Ryman/Hemlock setter is rather taller, more feathering, longer face than the 'normal' field setter.

The Llewellin setter started alittle earlier around the late 19th century when writers were differenciating between the Campbell setters (American lines - mostly a mix of Gordon, Red and imports), Imported setters like the Llewellin (which are mostly Laverick) and the Laverick setter (most of what we take for the modern english setter today). In the 60-70's, with horse trials gaining popularity, the Llewellin almost died out as like the Gordon is today. The lines that did survive were mainly close ranging dogs. Through imported Llewellin lines, some people are FT'ing them and a few are placing in All-Age trials. But those are few and far between.

When I thought about his question on range, I too thought 50 yards was 'no-big deal'. I couldn't think of a reason or a personal situation where heavy cover came into play. Until I thought of the tracts of corn fields throughout the local hunting grounds (the heavy cover is usually too thick for a person to penetrate). The few instances when my dog (Llewellin) kicked up a bird in the corn fields (or heavy cover), I was able to get close enough for a shot.

My dog could be the exception to the norm but don't believe so. Her normal range in open fields is about 75-100 yards.
 

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My gordon tends to work at least that far. She is about 2 1/2 years old. I have found it helps to train with a wind (strong) in your face. She tends to work much closer then. If I turn around and walk with the wind she will range out much further and circle back trying to find sent. I think my dog has enough independance that you really cant train them how to hunt, just to be obiedent.
 

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mite,

Mine work out pretty far, since we hunt mostly chuckar, and I want dogs to range and locate birds in BIG country.


I can get Ms. Scarlet to work in close sometimes, but she can have a mind of her own. :? She was working out only about 40-60 yards when we hunted ruffed grouse last.


She was forced to work close a week ago when we ruffed up the local quail. I had to use the E-collar, however.


All my Llewellins like to stretch their legs a bit. :wink: I may have to do with the wide open country they frequent and widly scattered covies.
 
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