Shotgun Forum banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi

I'm a lurker...guilty as charged.

I am also at a crossroads, or maybe not. I have a 725 Sporting 12/30 and 410/32. Neither are ported and I shoot both pretty well. My question is this; I've seen the Blaser F3 (and F16). Both seem solid, shoulder well, seem like they are both substantial guns. Maybe a little lighter in my hand than my 725. I also looked at a CG Summit Impact and Summit Sporting. The Summit Sporting stocks seems a bit high for me, shooting head up and when I shoulder it I look straight down the barrel, but the mid bead does not line up with the front or even make a figure 8, there is about a nickle width between them. The Blaser F16 and F3 both fit like a glove off the rack.

My question is this.

Would the CS or Blaser be a true upgrade from the 725 in terms of quality. I know shooting is in the hands of the guy holding it, but I also see a lot of CS, Beretta (which do not fit me at all) on the clays course. The Blaser seems to be what some of the pros shoot (at least the non K or P guns).

Does anyone have an opinion as to the 725 verses these other "upgraded" sporting clays guns.

I typically only shoot sporting clays and sometimes skeet. Never been bored enough to shoot trap or play golf (no offense). Just wondering if I should sell the 725 and fork out another 2 or 3 grand on a "true" pro grade sporting clays gun or is the 725 as good until you get up to the 8k plus shotguns?

Thanks

JB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,908 Posts
Upgrade? In what terms? Quality? How do you define quality? Basically it's a can of worms. The action of a CG is similar to a 725, being an underlug lock. Most manufacturers have one or two designs for locking systems that they use throughout their lines. The big differences are in the quality of wood in the stocks, finish on the metal and engraving. That's what you are paying for in upgrade firearms. Beretta uses the same receiver and locking system in their guns from the least expensive all the way up to their custom SO guns. Nothing new here. Find a design that pleases you and then pay for the wood and finishes that you like. There is absolutely no assurance that a fancy and expensive gun will make you shoot better. Is there something about your 725 that you don't like? Are you intimidated by shooters with custom or expensive guns? If so, don't be. I have some very expensive guns but I often shoot an old 870 20 ga Skeet and clean up with it. It's not the gun, it's the shooter behind it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oh I agree completely. No intimidation, just wondering what I'm getting for all of that extra money above the 725. To be honest, the CG just seemed thicker and the barrel selector sounded more pronounced, but didn't have mechanical triggers like the 725. The owner of the gun shop really touts the CG guns as being the best in clay shooting, which is why I was looking. The wood was ok, to be honest I hand picked both of my Brownings and found some really great wood. Both the Browning and the CG I looked at had plain receivers and I'm more interested in overall build and shooting than some scroll work.

I guess I'm asking if there is that big of a build and material upgrade over the 725 since you don't hear about many of the pros shooting them (not that the latter matters that much to me). I could feel a little more balance in the Blaser and the trigger/action were pretty unique and cool, but not "better" to me than the Browning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
938 Posts
I had a 725 Sporting -- I liked it; nice gun. On a lark I bought a CG as a"back up" when I put my 725 in the shop for some stock work. Sold the Browning and bought another CG -- then another. Better triggers, better wood and hardware, heavier, fit me better -- and way, way better reputation for service after the sale.

Some of my friends outshoot me with 870 pumps, Brownings ... and other brands. For me, I prefer the CG over the Browning. I shot one round with a Blaser and it kicked like a mule -- but it didn't fit me. My opinion is that both are an "upgrade"'from a 725. FWIW, that is my opinion and I put my money where my mouth is. Ha!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,606 Posts
casonet said:
Beretta uses the same receiver and locking system in their guns from the least expensive all the way up to their custom SO guns.
Incorrect. Beretta uses dual conical lugs up to their 680/690 series guns. ASEs/DT10s and up use the "Greener" type crossbolt system. Two completely different lock ups. Both good....but not the same.



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,908 Posts
They build SO guns with both types of locking systems. The boss type dual conical lock is used from the most inexpensive up to the Gublieo and even on up to SO custom guns costing over $100,000. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,341 Posts
Diddle said:
I had a 725 Sporting -- I liked it; nice gun. On a lark I bought a CG as a"back up" when I put my 725 in the shop for some stock work. Sold the Browning and bought another CG -- then another. Better triggers, better wood and hardware, heavier, fit me better -- and way, way better reputation for service after the sale.

Some of my friends outshoot me with 870 pumps, Brownings ... and other brands. For me, I prefer the CG over the Browning. I shot one round with a Blaser and it kicked like a mule -- but it didn't fit me. My opinion is that both are an "upgrade"'from a 725. FWIW, that is my opinion and I put my money where my mouth is. Ha!
This is a fairly common situation. CGs have a way of winning adherents very quickly. The 725 may be an improvement on the earlier 'standard' Citoris but it's still pretty clunky and unrefined. (BTW the triggers are not truly mechanical, just a modified inertia system which pretends to be mechanical) CGs and Blasers are smoother and sweeter to operate and have better - usually much better - trigger pulls. In quality terms the 725s look okay, but some have really dire trigger pulls, just like the bad old days of the older Citoris. The standard 725 sporting is also quite a lightweight and the vast majority of serious sporting clays shooters, including women, prefer a gun to be at least ½lb heavier. I know you can add weight but there is such a thing as shotgun charisma which most CGs have in spades, but the 725 fails dismally and only seems to appeal to diehard Browning fans or the people who listen to gunshop staff. I'm not sure that Browning has all that much faith in the 725, for example in this country, Browning still sells the Gd1 525 with the latest light barrels and DS chokes for about £500 less than the GD1 725. They also still sell the latest version XS Ultra which is probably the best clays gun Browning has ever built and it sells for about the same as the 725 Black. No contest IMO.

The only 725s I've seen in the hands of seriously good sporting shots is the new ProTrap version. It still has the sloppy triggers, but the overal weight, balance and feel is much more like a Blaser Supersport or Summit Ascent... And the triggers can be fettled. :wink:

Seriously, any of the makes & models you've mentioned would be more pleasing to own and more pleasant to shoot sporting with than the 725 and be better fitted and finished toboot. You might not hit bigger scores but a good looking, well balanced, solid sporter from CG or Blaser with nice woodwork and a good oil finish gives an enhanced shooting experience and you own something worth treasuring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,258 Posts
I've owned a couple CG's and a 725. I've shot a Blaser F3 quite a few times. My opinion is as follows:

725: Best bargain out there for a well made, reliable target gun. Say what you will, but well under $3K will buy you a solid sporter, albeit on the light side. I had a 725 12 gauge gun, and traded it on a CG, but still own a 28 gauge version, which I really like. No, it is not as "refined" as the others listed here, but it is well engineered and well built. The recoil pad does soak up a lot, and if it fits well represents a great buy.

Guerini: I've owned a couple of these. I still own a Challenger Impact. Also a very good value, but it's a notch up fit and finish wise from the Brownings and priced accordingly. Well balanced, and very in touch with the American market. Yes, the lockup is somewhat pedestrian, but it will outlast you and can be rebuilt. Superb customer service - this means more than you think. CG's are generally reliable guns, but if you have an issue, CG has your back.

Blaser: My shooting buddy has an F3 Super Sport. Really nice gun and generally on the heavy side, but in good way. Also very well balanced and well finished, but I've not seen one yet where I was impressed with the wood. The lockup/action isn't really anything to write home about - but the triggers are. Nicer than the above two and they are striker fired. I think they are a little overpriced compared to Guerini's above and the gun I'll throw at last as an option. I have not shot an F16 - they seem very light and built to a price. That's my opinion. I'm sure they are fine guns but for target work I'd go F3 or elsewhere.

Zoli Z-Gun: I just picked up one of these an so far I'm pretty impressed. Somewhere between CG and Blaser price-wise, but as good or better engineered than either. Really solid lockup/action - technically better than all of the above, but in truth they will all outlive us. Superb balance. Very light recoil for an 8 LB gun. Removeable triggers are nice, especially at this price point. They aren't as nice as the Blaser triggers, but they are close. The Z-Gun and the Kronos are essentially identical save for some minutiae, so shop for the best deal. In truth I think they are a tad overpriced, but not like the Blaser. A Z-Sport comes in in the high $5k range, which is what an up-level CG goes for.

I could write about the K guns - I've shot quite a few and like them both. Different price class. Of the two I'd pick Kolar every time because of the way they fit and move. But it's a different game at that point as you know.

To answer your real question - yes, the 725 is enough gun to take you to the next level. If the recoil doesn't bother you and the gun fits, there's nothing wrong with milking it. Is it "as good" as the others listed? That's subjective. If you factor in price, then it makes a compelling argument. Spend a little more, get a little more. Such is life :)

Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,779 Posts
They will all do the job. Unless you shoot 50k+ rounds a year, they will all last longer than you do. The one that fits best is probably the one you will shoot best. The one you shoot best is probably the one you will like the best. A good stock fitter/stock builder can make any of them fit (not cheap, but well worth the cost). I have owned all, and I shoot an F3 because I happen to like the gun (no other reason).

By way of full disclosure, I could never come to terms with Blaser's factory stocks; all four configurations kicked me in the face. I sucked it up and had Jim Greenwood build a stock for me; all of the cheek slap went away, felt recoil dropped by at least half, and the gun points where I look - every time without squirming around on the stock. And no, I don't always (or even mostly) look at the right place.

Go with the gun you like best. Any of them can be made to fit. Good luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
I like the Browning O/Us. I have 3 of them: a Citori Skeet from the early 80s, an Ultra Sporter from the 90s and a 725 Sporting. They just seem to fit me. I've never had a problem with any of them and the two early ones have seen some rounds thru them. I learned to slap the heck out of a shotgun trigger when I shoot them, so unless the triggers are real heavy (which they aren't) a little creep isn't noticed. Other shotguns might look better, be better finished, have prettier wood etc., but a Browning or a Beretta will last a long time and will break a lot of targets. The 725 I bought this year feels like a Browning and I shoot it as well as the previous ones. I don't feel at a disadvantage with it vs anyone shooting a higher priced shotgun. If they fit you, shoot where you are looking and feel right, there is no need to switch. But - - - need often has nothing to do with it. If a prettier gun strikes your fancy, or if you want a heavier shotgun, or just want to keep up with the Jones, then get one of the high-priced premium shotguns. They are very nice. Heck, it's only money and life is short. However, I've never felt the need to spend more. One of the things I really like about shotgun shooting is that success is not as dependent upon how much you are willing to spend on the hardware as are some of the high-level rifle shooting disciplines. In the end, it's the Xs that count, and it's the only thing that really matters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Appreciate the responses. I can tell you this. I shot a few guns today after a clays shoot. The CG Impact was nice, but that high rib is really touchy if you don't swing dead level. The CG Summit Sporting nearly had enough drop for me with the factory stock, but it's really beefy on the comb compared to what I'm used to. The last gun was a Z Sporter. Now that was the best. Nice triggers (by the way, the Browning triggers from the factory were junk so I had them worked. They Z gun felt as good from the factory with the CG being dang nice for what they are). I can feel where the extra money goes in the Z gun. The CG...maybe. The selectors were more substantial and the stock was higher grade. I save scroll envy for my hunting doubles, not the target guns so that point is moot. I shoot low gun usually depending on the target, so the Z Gun came up dead nuts like the Browning. CG...more like a Beretta where I'm staring over the top of the rib. Stock work definitely required.

Lock up seemed solid on all. My buddies with the other guns all shot my Browning 12 and 410; we agreed the 410 was the best of the lot between a couple of sub gauge CG and B guns. I don't feel this would have been the case with the factory triggers, however.

The Z gun was pretty much lusted after with CG and Browning coming in about the same for shootability. This was only on sporting clays and shooting 100 targets after the regular shoot for fun and to try out guns. Bottom line, I shot about the same with any of the guns, I just had to think about keeping my head down more with the CG instead of a natural stance/posture. May just stick with the Browning until I make it to AA level...that should give me years to save for a new gun lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,046 Posts
Trickster said:
This is a fairly common situation. CGs have a way of winning adherents very quickly. The 725 may be an improvement on the earlier 'standard' Citoris but it's still pretty clunky and unrefined. (BTW the triggers are not truly mechanical, just a modified inertia system which pretends to be mechanical) CGs and Blasers are smoother and sweeter to operate and have better - usually much better - trigger pulls. In quality terms the 725s look okay, but some have really dire trigger pulls, just like the bad old days of the older Citoris. The standard 725 sporting is also quite a lightweight and the vast majority of serious sporting clays shooters, including women, prefer a gun to be at least ½lb heavier. I know you can add weight but there is such a thing as shotgun charisma which most CGs have in spades, but the 725 fails dismally and only seems to appeal to diehard Browning fans or the people who listen to gunshop staff. I'm not sure that Browning has all that much faith in the 725, for example in this country, Browning still sells the Gd1 525 with the latest light barrels and DS chokes for about £500 less than the GD1 725. They also still sell the latest version XS Ultra which is probably the best clays gun Browning has ever built and it sells for about the same as the 725 Black. No contest IMO.

The only 725s I've seen in the hands of seriously good sporting shots is the new ProTrap version. It still has the sloppy triggers, but the overal weight, balance and feel is much more like a Blaser Supersport or Summit Ascent... And the triggers can be fettled. :wink:

Seriously, any of the makes & models you've mentioned would be more pleasing to own and more pleasant to shoot sporting with than the 725 and be better fitted and finished toboot. You might not hit bigger scores but a good looking, well balanced, solid sporter from CG or Blaser with nice woodwork and a good oil finish gives an enhanced shooting experience and you own something worth treasuring.
It is hard to fathom what "upgrade" is supposed to mean to everyone. It must be something like "deluxe"?

I think the current Browning 725s are pretty darn good, considering that they are mass-produced (as far as vertical doubles) and at an attractive price point. Cynergy's fit me better, they are far better for me . . . but not necessarily better for anyone else.

A CG Summit Impact isn't the only choice, for numerous CG models are stocked, ribbed, and weighted differently. Regardless of what you choose, there isn't any substitute for a gun that fits you the way you want.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,341 Posts
Well I have to fess up that I'm hardly the world's greatest Browing fan. I know they're rugged and all that, but over the years I've seen so many bottom barrel FTFs, sometimes at a critical point in a competition, that I wouldn't consider one even if they shot well for me. They've had 40+ plus years to work out how to make firing pins that don't erode and still not succeeded. If every one else can do it why can't Browning/Miroku?

I also have to disagree about the 725 being the best value gun - at least in terms of UK pricing. In my opinion, the current Beretta SP-1 is every bit as good as the 725 Gd 1 and for a lot less money... and the firing pins last for ever. 8)

Like many I have to consider the cost : benefit ratio and justify my spend accordingly. This goes for any capital outlay whether guns, cars, holidays etc. I made my choice for a main competiton gun based on comparisons and tryouts with many and various guns. The CGs spoke to me more than the others and the standard comb holds my line of sight well above the rib, which is how I like a gun to shoot. My CG shoots well, has excellent triggers and gets many compliments on the wood and overall looks.

Where the Guerini brothers have been so successful is in picking their place in the market and building excellent products to suit. CG is the only example of applying modern business methods to shotgun making that I can think of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,258 Posts
Here the difference is going to be 500-600 US dollars, but yes, the SP-1 is also chok-full of value. I find the fit hideously wrong for me and don't shoot them, so I can't comment on the function side of the equation, but it's a great gun.

CG is undeniably the smartest company out there right now from a marketing perspective - miles ahead of anyone else IMO. It's truly impressive what they have been able to accomplish.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
Regarding the Browning firing pins. My 1982 Citori has the original pins, never a failure to fire and no chipping or metal erosion. On my 1990s Ultra Sporter, I never had a failure to fire but I did recently observe some chipping at the end of the bottom pin, so I replaced it. So far no problems with my new 725 20 gauge with a couple thousand rounds thru it. I do shoot with some guys who have Brownings that have bottom barrel failure to fires (mostly with reloads) and they are procrastinating on replacing the short pins.

After replacing the chipped pin with a pin from J&P Custom, the primer hits were craters. The firing pins are easy and inexpensive to replace. Obviously not a deal breaker for me and not sufficient justification for me spending an extra grand or two on another shotgun when the Brownings fits me so well and breaks lots of targets for me.

https://www.jnpgunsprings.com/product_i ... cts_id=225
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,803 Posts
If you are shooting your Brownings well you have little to gain from a new gun. Perhaps nothing more than a little bling and pride of ownership. All the guns mentioned so far are quality guns and would serve you well, but fit is the most important thing. If your Brownings fit you well, it's likely the others will not...although fit can be altered.
For me nothing fits off the shelf, and all my guns have had work done to them. After the fit work, I prefer my Zoli over my Browning...It just has a better balance for me. YMMV...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
I just had a case of "spoke too soon" with my 725 Sporting 20 ga. Yesterday I was shooting it and trying some Rem. STS ammo. I had 3 FTF on the bottom barrel out of 3 boxes (my first ever with any of my Brownings). Examining the other hulls showed solid primer hits. I never had a problem shooting Rio or Federal Top Gun ammo in this shotgun. This may be a matter of a couple of the Remington primers being set too low. If the problem continues with my usual Rios or Federals, I will change out the factory pin with the J&P pin that I already have for it (I like to be prepared). An examination of the pin from the action face shows no noticeable damage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,908 Posts
Yesterday I shot my 5th round of 25 hits at wobble Skeet starting with low gun mount using my 10 year old 682 Gold Greystone 20 ga and a 29 1/2" sporting barrel. At this point I am disinclined to move up to anything.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top