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Does one need to be concerned with the velocity difference between these loads when duck hunting?

I am thinking more of the travel time from gun to target. Does it effect how much one should lead your target? or Is velocity all about knockdown power?

Obviously, the steel travels faster helping with its knockdown power which helps offset its lighter weight/density. I guess the hevi-shot goes slower due to its increased weight/density.

Need insight! Thanks!
 

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There are at least two variables here. HeviShot is more dense and maintains velocity better and steel starts fast but also slows down faster. So out at 45 yards there may be less difference assuming larger pellet size in the steel.

I have had serious clay target shooters tell me that they can tell a difference in 60fps on 40 yard crossing targets and it is not even a 1/4 of a pattern width at that distance. Some where I have the reference materials that will let me figure that out, but It would take a lot of digging.

Generally speaking I think that a HeviShot load at 45 yards will be better than a fast steel load.
 

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Shot size as well as shot density will effrct the formula for figuring 'time to target'. In general terms tho' fast steel (1500fps) and Hevi-Shot will reach the target so close to the same that a person would not be able to tell the difference.

tom
 

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Hevi-shot blows away any lead or hot steel loads WITH smaller shot.There is no contest.Look on remington .com.They had a vidieo deminstraiting the differant patterns and power tests of many loads.Hevi shot won with smaller shot.
 

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Hevi-shot is a bit denser then lead and significantly heavier then steel and will have more down range energy then steel. It doesn't need extreme velocity to gain effective knock down power.

I don't see the difference in speed as having any significance in your lead. What you want is pattern density and down range energy to knock down waterfowl.

The owner of Schraders on the Eastern shore of Maryland told me last month that he only uses steel. He thinks hevi-shot is not worth the extra cost when shooting at 40-50 yards. I have a friend who has taken apart several hevi-shot shells and found inconsistency in shot size. He found shot sizes ranging from 6 to 2 in a #2 shot shell. However, I have other friends that only use hevi-shot and will only use steel shot as a last resort.

I primarily use hevi shot for goose and duck hunting and I believe it works well but the verdict is still out for which I am going to use on a regular basis. I have seen steel shot be effective up to 40+ yards (which makes up 80% of my shooting situations). I am going to give it a try for ducks and geese. If I find that steel is as effective I am going switch because it is ½ the cost of hevi shot. Just my $0.02.
 

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Well,
I'm questioning the validity of these ballistic charts i have.
I have steel pellet ballistics from Reloading Specialties.
And i have Hevi-shot ballistics from Ballistic Products
Here's what they say:
Muzzle
Steel #2 1600fps
Hevi #2 1300fps

30yds
Steel #2 836fps TOF .082 seconds
Hevi #2 863fps TOF .085 seconds

40yds
Steel #2 723fps TOF .122 seconds
Hevi #2 750fps TOF .122 seconds

50yds
Steel #2 631fps TOF .166 seconds
Hevi #2 651fps TOF .165 seconds

But these charts cannot be really accurate,also being from two different sources,because they place the #2 hevi as being substantially faster at 30yds even though starting 300fps slower at the muzzle, then shows the steel pellet almost catchin back up and holding up with the hevi clear to 50yds??
 
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Charts do not tell the story. What matters in the field is performance. I grew up with lead shot for waterfowl. Very effective. I shot ducks with 20 gauge 3" with #4 & #6 shot with excellent results out to 50 yds. !2 gauge for Canadas. Steel changed all that and even a 3" 12 crippled and wounded many birds. We could consistantly see birds hit tjhat would continue to fly/sail and be unrecoverable. Hevi-Shot changed all that and has performance as good if not better than lead. Most of our kills are dead in the air. I will NEVER use steel shot again.-Dick
 

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I've done very well with steel, but you have to do your homework with it in the way of
1)learn the leads, (shootin the stuff well with the shorter shotstrings and more non-linear leads )
2) patterning work, (yes, can be grueling and time consuming)
3)chronograph work (don't always believe what it say's on the box,trust me)
4)shoot the faster stuff 1450fps minimum, unless BB shot or larger, can go down to 1380fps minimum,but still best to stay above 1450fps.
I shot some 1780fps loads through a tight choke, fabulous stuff.
5) learn it's limitations.
 

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whenever i have duck hunted i always used steel shot and nothing else and iv had great success with it but yea iv heard some great things about hevi-shot but i will stick with steel cuz why try something new when the old works just fine :wink:
 

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I shoot waterfowl on the Central and Pacific flyways and will never go back to steel. The light weight steel just does not have the energy to bring down geese (or late season mallards) on a regular basis. More than a few times, guys shooting steel in the blinds will beg to use the Hevyshot most of us shoot. Hevyshot #2's at 45-60 yds will roll a Canadian if centered. Try some Hevyshot, it will significantly reduce your cripples.
 

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UltraMag said:
Well,
I'm questioning the validity of these ballistic charts i have.
I have steel pellet ballistics from Reloading Specialties.
And i have Hevi-shot ballistics from Ballistic Products
Here's what they say:
Muzzle
Steel #2 1600fps
Hevi #2 1300fps

30yds
Steel #2 836fps TOF .082 seconds
Hevi #2 863fps TOF .085 seconds

40yds
Steel #2 723fps TOF .122 seconds
Hevi #2 750fps TOF .122 seconds

50yds
Steel #2 631fps TOF .166 seconds
Hevi #2 651fps TOF .165 seconds

But these charts cannot be really accurate,also being from two different sources,because they place the #2 hevi as being substantially faster at 30yds even though starting 300fps slower at the muzzle, then shows the steel pellet almost catchin back up and holding up with the hevi clear to 50yds??
The data makes perfect sense and it validates what ballisticians have said all along:

1) Hevi Shot's inertia allows it to match the downrange velocity of steel shot that starts with a huge advantage at the muzzle.

2) Spherical shot slows down dramatically, and the lighter it is the quicker it slows down (inertia again).

3) Even at almost equal speeds (+/- 30 fps), Hevi Shot blows steel away in killing power due to its retained momentum and energy.

I also don't know why you consider Hevi SHot's 30 fps advantage over steel being "substantially faster" at 30 yds, but Hevi Shot's 20 fps advantage at 50 yds evidence that steel "has almost caught up".
 

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I have a lead calculator on my computer and I thought I would give you some information to consider.

Assuming that the target is 35 yards from the muzzle and moving at 50 miles per hour in both observations, the difference between the 1550 fps steel and the 1300 fps heavy in terms of lead in feet at the bird is .95'. The lead required to center punch the target with the 1550 fps steel is 4.95' and for the heavy it is 5.9'. At 35 yards, which is approaching the lethal limits of steel shot, with a modified choke for both loads, the difference in speed, assuming you point a gun loaded with heavy where it would center the target with steel, could make you miss behind. A modified choke with both of these materials should pattern at or inside of a 30" circle at 40 yards. If this is true, then 30" divided by 12 gives us 2.5 feet and when divided by 2, gives us 1.25 (1' 3") feet. The margin for error in this imaginary(?) vacuum is only .3' or slightly more than 3 inches. This is really getting rediculous. :lol:

Then, theres the slowing of the steel to be added to this little equation. Being lighter, it will slow faster and offer less lethality downrange than heavy, lead, bismuth, etc, etc.

The answer to hitting more targets over 30 yards is to give em more than you think it takes. Remember, you can shoot a boat oars length in front of a target and still hit it but you'll get nothing if you're one inch behind it.
 

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deadapair said:
The data makes perfect sense and it validates what ballisticians have said all along:
It makes no sense at all.
Let's assume the muzzle velocity of the steel #2 is 836fps
and the muzzle velocity of the Hevi-Shot #2 is 863fps
If the steel is less dense, it should always have at least a 27fps deficit
to the hevi shot,with the more dense hevi shot "pulling away" from the steel as the range increases.
but at 10yds downrange, the steel is still only down 27fps to the hevi shot,
why is it not slowing down faster than the hevi shot if it's lighter?
and at 20yds downrange the steel is actually catching back up to the denser hevi shot being down only 20fps, and this makes sense to you???
 

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UltraMag said:
deadapair said:
The data makes perfect sense and it validates what ballisticians have said all along:
It makes no sense at all.
Let's assume the muzzle velocity of the steel #2 is 836fps
and the muzzle velocity of the Hevi-Shot #2 is 863fps
If the steel is less dense, it should always have at least a 27fps deficit
to the hevi shot,with the more dense hevi shot "pulling away" from the steel as the range increases.
but at 10yds downrange, the steel is still only down 27fps to the hevi shot,
why is it not slowing down faster than the hevi shot if it's lighter?
and at 20yds downrange the steel is actually catching back up to the denser hevi shot being down only 20fps, and this makes sense to you???
Why don't you go work out some equations that describe the ballistics of spherical projectiles?

If physics was a matter of common sense, people like me would not have to waste four years of college to understand it.

Keep believing whatever you like. I'm not going to waste any more of my time explaining this to you.
 

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[If physics was a matter of common sense, people like me would not have to waste four years of college to understand it.

Keep believing whatever you like. I'm not going to waste any more of my time explaining this to you.[/quote]

Dead why the frustration with Ultramag? I was loking forward to your explenation! Damnn dissapointing!

Ultramag: Maybe the fps comparison doesn't make as much sense as comparison of the energy of two different materials at similar speeds at impact or in this case depth of penetration. Common sense would tell me there should be a significant speed separation at 40 to 50yds......But?

Maybe Dead will unraval the complexity of what we struggle to understand.
 

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Ultramag, I gotta say those numbers don't add up for me either. But I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways; c'mon deadapair, enlighten us. I wonder how those figures were arrived at anyway? If in some kind of empirical test, maybe the fact that #2 hevishot is anything but spherical and of uniform diameter affected the results? :(
 

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JCS83,
To answer your question, I would use the same lead for 1550 fps steel or 1300 fps hevi-shot. I don't think the flight time out to 40 yards would vary enough to matter too much. As for insight, it sounds to me like you have a good grasp of the different loads. Boosting steel shot from 1350 fps to 1550 fps adds more energy to the pellets which extends it maximum effective range. It depends on pellet size but I use an estimate of about 5 yards more range with fast steel versuses the slow steel. I would be willing to shoot 35 yards with #3 fast steel, but only 30 yards with #3 slow steel.
For hevi-shot, the speed is only 1300 or 1350 because it retains energy better and you don't need the extra speed and recoil of 1550 fps. The ammo companies could find a way to shoot hevi-shot or lead at 1550 fps, but its not necessary. Even at 1300 fps your pattern loses effectiveness before the pellets lose too much energy, with appropriate pellet size (not using 7 1/2 for geese).

Ultramag,
I agree there seems to be something wrong with those charts, that could be attributed to different sources collecting the data. Equation wise, lower density steel should decelerate faster than higher density hevi-shot assuming they are both perfectly round and the same size. Here is the catch as I see it: steel can be modeled as perfectly round, but hevi-shot should not be. I have only looked at one cut apart but what I saw did not impress me for uniformity. Perhaps this causes a greater drag coefficient especially at lower sub mach speeds (ie very non-linear drag)? Assuming the charts are correct, this could be an explanation. If it was my money though, I would go with my gut and say those charts are wrong and would show different results if created by the same company. That is, even with hevi-shot being non-uniform, the greater density overcomes the greater drag forces.

Jeremiah
 

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FullandFuller said:
JCS83,
To answer your question, I would use the same lead for 1550 fps steel or 1300 fps hevi-shot. I don't think the flight time out to 40 yards would vary enough to matter too much. As for insight, it sounds to me like you have a good grasp of the different loads. Boosting steel shot from 1350 fps to 1550 fps adds more energy to the pellets which extends it maximum effective range. It depends on pellet size but I use an estimate of about 5 yards more range with fast steel versuses the slow steel. I would be willing to shoot 35 yards with #3 fast steel, but only 30 yards with #3 slow steel.
For hevi-shot, the speed is only 1300 or 1350 because it retains energy better and you don't need the extra speed and recoil of 1550 fps. The ammo companies could find a way to shoot hevi-shot or lead at 1550 fps, but its not necessary. Even at 1300 fps your pattern loses effectiveness before the pellets lose too much energy, with appropriate pellet size (not using 7 1/2 for geese).

Ultramag,
I agree there seems to be something wrong with those charts, that could be attributed to different sources collecting the data. Equation wise, lower density steel should decelerate faster than higher density hevi-shot assuming they are both perfectly round and the same size. Here is the catch as I see it: steel can be modeled as perfectly round, but hevi-shot should not be. I have only looked at one cut apart but what I saw did not impress me for uniformity. Perhaps this causes a greater drag coefficient especially at lower sub mach speeds (ie very non-linear drag)? Assuming the charts are correct, this could be an explanation. If it was my money though, I would go with my gut and say those charts are wrong and would show different results if created by the same company. That is, even with hevi-shot being non-uniform, the greater density overcomes the greater drag forces.

Jeremiah
Thanks FandF. Would this explination be to your liking Dead?
 
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