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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
does a low brass pattern expand faster than a high brass? ie whould a low brass shell be better on close shots like quail?
 

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heberle,

I don't know that low or high brass has anything todo directly with how a gun patterns. High brass is usually associated w/ heavier loads and will patern differantly then lighter game or target loads. It depends more on your gun and how it is choked. If your looking for a good quail load i'de look for a lighter load of small shot. Factory high brass load swill have you destroying the birds at quail distances. I also feel that you will be a much better quail hunter if you shoot lighter loads because your mind won't start to rebell against your finger pulling the trigger. (flinching) Joe
 

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Don't let the outward appearance of the shell fool you. It is the numbers that tell the story. What was associated with high brass in the past are numbers like 3 3/4- 1 1/4- 5. The first number, of course, refers to the powder charge, and the larger this number, the more "power" the shell has (i.e. faster).The second number indicates the shot weight and the third the shot size. If you look at reloading books you will find that the lowly Winchester AA hulls which typically come from the factory with shot weights from 7/8 to 1 1/8 oz can be used for shot charges up to 1 3/8 oz and/or for extremely high velocity charges of powder. Too, for a number of years there was a case which had no brass on the outside-Active brand.
As far as patterning, that is as has been said so many times before a unique relationship between every gun and each different shell. What might pattern best in a full choked Browning trap gun might have huge holes in the pattern in a full choked Benelli field gun. By simply swithching shot size the results might be just the opposite, and the same might be true with a greater/lesser amount of powder.
 

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On the question of Velocity vs Patterns......We found at the factories that a velocity near, or slightly below, the speed of sound gave the most even patterns, no matter what the shot size. At this speed there was very little shock wave pellet to pellet. Dr. Francis Sell ran many test years ago on high-density loadings that proved the point also. For quail and dove....the best shell we found was a trap load (7% antimony).....in 1 1/8 oz of #8's.
The Dram Eqv. of a shell does not tell much about velocity with factory lead shot loads, as most loads give around 1175/1275 '/"
Best Regards, James
 

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So if a load of # 6 leaves the end of a shotgun at 1350 fps there could be shock waves until the fps of the shot fell to around 1200 fps?How far from the barrel would that be?The reason I ask ,is the guys I hunt with think loads that travel 1400 fps are better than a load traveling at 1200.You know bigger better faster.I am more concerned with the psi.
 

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I don't have the data for 1350'/" , but my daas sheets from the test show the velocity at 1330 '/'"........By 20 measuered yards, the load has dropped below the speed of sound. As the load leaves the barrel in more or less a solid mass, the speed of sound is broken.....thus the noise. As the load travels , the shock wave pellet to pellet comes into play. Once under the speed of sound (no shock wave) the pellets continue on the angle produced by the shock wave.
A thought......if a shot charge is dropped from a tower, it will scatter very little and hit the ground in a small circle.
All of this must take into consideration shot deformation also. Tests we have done to verify Sells work was done with hard copper and nickel plated shot.
As for as arguement with shooters who can not understand the shock wave study......my advice is don't argue.
Best Regards, James
 

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I'm trying to work up a load using Longshot.The recipe I'm looking at calls for 32.3 gr of powder for a speed of1420 fps.The faster load at 1530 fps uses 35.5 gr of powder.Would I be safe in using 28. gr of powder?I would think the fps should drop to somewhere around 1200fps.
 

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this is a reloading forum, so high or low brass is moot. generally, higher velocity gives worse patterns. higher velocity loads slow down quicker than slower loads, so, a load that starts out 100 or 150 fps faster at the muzzle may only be going 30 or 40 fps faster at game ranges. generally means usually, but not always. generally, lower velocity loads pattern better than higher speed loads. often a magnum load like 1 1/2 oz 12 ga at 1160 fps will have less penetration at game ranges than a 1 oz 1300 fps load. i would rather have a good patterning 1 oz. load at 1250-1300 fps than some wild 1500+ fps load with greatly increased recoil. if, after 10 shots you are taking your head off the stock, or even closing your eyes, that super-duper load is not going to get the job done for you. i shoot a lot of trap, and slower loads break the bird harder than faster loads, because of superior patterning. btw, longshot does not download worth a darn. use only recipes.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Lex Talio said:
On the question of Velocity vs Patterns......We found at the factories that a velocity near, or slightly below, the speed of sound gave the most even patterns, no matter what the shot size.

FYI THE APPROX SPEED OF SOUND CAN BE CALCULATED AS 1090FT/SEC PLUS 2T, T BEING THE TEMPATURE IN DEGREES F. THEREFORE IF THE OUTSIDE TEMP IS 80 DEGREES THE SPEED OF SOUND COULD BE ESTIMATED TO BE 160 PLUS 1090 OR EQUAL to 1250 FT PER SECOND AND LA DE DA DA!!!!!

Hope this helps
 

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Vicvlb,
I believe that the load you are looking at is for 1 1/8oz of shot. Longshot powder is designed for heavy loads. If you want to go 1200fps with 1 1/8oz of shot in the 12ga, you would be better served using a powder such as Clays, or International which are designed for this purpose. You will use a lot less powder.
 

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vicvlb;

Well, It would probably be safe, but not good! Longshot wants a heavier shot charge or faster velocity to work well. Less powder won't fill the hull well and you will only exsaserbate an already bad situation having a poor/loose crimp. Tod is absolutly correct, opt for a different powder. Better performance at a far less cost. With the correct powder you can do that job with about half the powder wt. Since powder is bought and sold by wt. not volume, get something else. Save the long shot for heavy/fast loads or use it in your 28 ga.

BP
 
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