[dks]

Now with the Perntagon and the CIA admitting that there wasnt really enough evidence of WMDs in Iraq to justify war for the protection of the Universe from evil Saddam (ok, he is evil) has the US/UK invaded a country under false prettences with the sole reason of stealing their oil?

E.g., a group of vigilantes gather outside your house because they claim you have illegal shotguns, come in destroy your house dont find any illegal guns, but steal your money to rebuilt your house, for their own use.

The people of Iraq do not appear any happier, and there is still killing taking place on a daily basis(4 US soldiers died yesterday), Saddam has not been found no WMDs have been found but on the plus side a lot of new contracts have been given to President Bushs friends (and taken away from the French, the US arch enemy) and CNN, has been shown to bent the odd truth a bit (see previous topics).

Also:
1The Middle east road map has failled (rejected by hamash), so the arabs got nothing again.
2. Amnesty international has accused the US because the war against terrorism is causing more terrorism than ever.
3. Al Guida is as strong as ever, despite flattening Agfanistan.

Now with the rallying behind troops feeling over, since most have returned back a lot of questions need to be answered. I seem to think that the only weapon of mass destruction is a certain presidents brain.

Unhappy?, unimpressed? Depressed?, holding upopular views (in the US)? You bet I am.

 

[GordonSetter]

How do you account for the 2 chemical weapons labs found 2 months ago? How about the nuke lab a few weeks ago? How about the torture chambers that won't be used again? Hear about the man who spoke out against Saddam and had to spend 20 years hiding in the wall af his mother house? How about the billions of US $$ Saddam stashed instead of using to help the starving people of Iraq? How about the fact that he used the oil for food program to finance weapons purchases? Did you know only three years ago the CIA pretended to be former soviet agents and sold Saddam some fake plutonium? How about the fact that chemical Ali murdered thousands testing weapons?

I admit we did not find any weapons yet. We found labs, torture devices, bodies, money, Saddam tried to buy plutonium ..... come on! If you can't see that he needed to be drop kicked then you need to take a class on "how to spot the obvious". I know I'm being sarcastic but this is really annoying me! The WMD argument got us the in we needed to get the job done! Frankly if Bush came on TV and said "Saddam is a madman killing his people and we're gonna go kick his butt for it!" I would have said go for it. Most of America would not. Did Bush use the WMD argument to start a war when there was no basis? 2 things:
1) War with Iraq was declared 8 years ago by the 1st president Bush. This means W. Bush did not need to start a war, it was there already. No treaty ending the war was ever signed.
2) The U.S. has known for years that Saddam has been trying to built WMD. Heck our own CIA sold him fake materials just to prove it to Clinton. If you think we should have waited until the weapons were built before we attacked then you need to take a step back and realize what that would have meant. Saddam with the ability to kill millions in a second if we looked at him funny. That don't sound good to me!

Bush's friends rebuilding Iraq and the French left out? Ok this is a statement made do to misinformation or more precisely not all the information. The company that got the contract to rebuild Iraq is a company that has done this type of work hundreds of times in the past. They rebuilds after wars, disasters and emergencies. They got the deal because they are the best. If you are friends with the best carpenter in the biz and your mom needs a new counter, who you gonna recommend? You gonna tell your mom "well Joe is the best man for the job but you should use someone from out of town so the other carpenters don't think we're playing favorites." Heck no, you'll call Joe and tell him to get to work on tuesday! Should Joe be punished because he is my friend? I don't think so. Why should we care if France was in on the rebuild? They put nothing at risk during this war why should they reap any benefit, especially if they are not the most qualified to do the work?

The people in Iraq do not appear any happier? Compared to when? Did you ever see a person from Iraq who wasn't happy before the war? Think about it ... you never saw an unhappy person in Iraq before we got there! Do you think this means they lived in joy or do you think they knew they would be killed if they looked unhappy?

To use your house analogy you would also have to have some people locked in the basement that you beat, rape, starved and kill on a regular basis. Then the ones that come for your guns would need to let them out of the basement so they could help rebuild the house that they will live in. Then they would need to bring in a bunch of food and aid to the people you kept locked in your basement.

Also:
1The Middle east road map has failled (rejected by hamash), so the arabs got nothing again.
2. Amnesty international has accused the US because the war against terrorism is causing more terrorism than ever.
3. Al Guida is as strong as ever, despite flattening Agfanistan.

Is any of that fact? It looks like opinion.
1) Who are the "arabs" you speak of?
2) Big whoop, the UN told us to disarm our citizens so what? Amnesty international can say whatever they want, who cares?
3) Yeah I can tell by all the skyscrapers that have fallen since we bomb them.

 

[Canope]

Slightly on / off topic. Clipped from Rense.com:

In a country where the poor and old cannot afford health care, in a country where the economy is falling apart, in a country where 44 million people live on less than $12,000 dollars a year, in a nation where 5 million people are homeless, in a country where the entire media system is owned by only six media mega conglomerates, in a nation with the highest crime rate, in a country with the world's largest prison population, in a society where 60% of marriages end in divorce, in a country where 25% of kids under 12 live in poverty, in a country that cut 25 billion dollars out of veterans benefits to help pay for a new war, in a country where the gulf between the rich and poor is growing everyday, in a nation that supports dictatorships in Saudi, Egypt, and Turkey, in a country where the government is full of corruption, in a country with the world's highest teen suicide and stress rates, and you're telling me our biggest problems are TERRORISM and DRUGS?

BULL****!
------------------------------------
Our biggest problem is WE NEED OIL. We need to secure it for down the road when it does run out. A change is coming.....Thomas

 

[dks]

People are still failing to see the big picture, that the congress was mislead, and that the war was all about economics, getting money in the US and making the americans forget of any money worries they had.

A chemistry lab and some masks as well as CIA statements (how believable can they be? like CNN and FOX?) do not justify a war. I said it before, if Saddam was the problem get saddam not all his people.

As a sidenote I believe that Saddam and Bin ladden will not be caught, intentionally, since as long as they are out there the people will agree with the war against terrorism policy.

1) Who are the "arabs" you speak of?
2) Big whoop, the UN told us to disarm our citizens so what? Amnesty international can say whatever they want, who cares?
3) Yeah I can tell by all the skyscrapers that have fallen since we bomb them.

1.The main reason all the arab countries controlled their people and stopped them from protesting was through promissing them that the palestinians will get their freedom. I know most people will assume any arab is a terrorist but thats not allways true. The arabs are the gulf war countries, the opec countries etc. (the Arab leaque)

2. The UN, and amnesty international seem to be quite popular when people want to use them to invade countries but they are quite happy to say "who cares" when they blame pro american regimes like turkey.
Amnesty international said that more people are now dying in the 'liberated' countries now than before they were liberated. Considering the US went in to liberate them the US SHOULD care about what happens to them, but as its obvious by your statement the wars just took place for money and land rather than for people. Who cares if a few thousand people die?...not Gordonsetter.

3. Unless I'm mistaken Al Guida did not blow up a new set of towers each year. Just because they have not done anything big, in the US, lately does not mean that the war on Terrorism is over.

And on missinformation: The Defence minister hiomself said that the contracts would go to US companies, just after the end of the neverending war. Maybe he was misinformed as well.

There are a lot more serious problems than chassing Saddam, try korea who HAS nukes.

 

[GordonSetter]

Who cares if a few thousand people die?...not Gordonsetter.

First off how dare you presume to know anything about who I care about. You do not know my personal thoughts and feelings by misinterpreting my post here. You do not make a personal statement against me again. Nowhere in my post did I make any statement that supported your lying personal attack against me. Retract (not edit) your statement sir!
As far a congress being mislead you must think that all your elected officials are idiots and Bush is a brilliant mastermind. I don't buy it. Ever person in our government looked at this war and said "Yes, Saddam must go, and here we can liberate a country in the process." As far as the money thing, um what money are you talking about? The billions in aid we are GIVING the Iraqi people? The billions we SPENT on military hardware and personal? The billions we are SPENDING to rebuild? I don't see a lot coming in, do you? Oil prices are going up so that's not it. There is a natural gas shortage so that's not it. Where is all this money we are making off the war?
You don't believe the CIA, FOX or CNN. I don't blame you. I don't either! The trick is to take all the information presented by as many sources as possible and sift the truth out. Truth will be obvious once you start to look at the information sources as a whole. Do not take a bit of information that you heard or read somewhere and regurgitate it, that will not make it fact.
A mobile chemical laboratory with most of the chemicals needed to make chemical weapons painted camo, netted and half buried in the desert is not like some high school chemistry lab! Thousands of gas masks and chemical exposure suits is not "some" gas masks. What do you think these items were for? Do you think we should have waited to find out? Do you think we should have waited until Saddam unleashed WMD on innocents before we stepped in? I for one am glad we stepped in before Saddam got these weapons fully operational.
As far a Saddam and Ladden being caught: Believe what you want. It would be in Bush's best interest to capture these men. With an election year coming up it would only boost his popularity to deliver what the people want. It would not make sense for him to purposely fail at an objective this public and measurable.

The main reason all the arab countries controlled their people and stopped them from protesting was through promissing them that the palestinians will get their freedom.

So you admit (and generalize) that "arab" governments suppress their people. You also are under the assumption that Palestinians are not an invading force in Israel and they have a right to take part of Israel for their own. That is another topic but if you look at the history of the war between Israel and the Palestinians you will see that Israel was there first and the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map. Ever see an official Palestinian map? Israel is renamed Palestine. I also have never before heard the Palestinian argument used to explain the repression of people in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would like some more clarity on how that works.

The UN, and amnesty international seem to be quite popular when people want to use them to invade countries

Um last I check the UN was against this action from the get go. So that argument of the UN and AI being popular to invade is a null point in this argument. If we had actually used the UN to invade then you could make this argument, but we didn't. The US government said the same thing I did "Who cares about the UN? Not Us" see that is the statement of a free, sovereign nation that knows right from wrong. Saddam was wrong and I dare any sane person to say otherwise.

Considering the US went in to liberate them the US SHOULD care about what happens to them,

Again look at the billions in aid we are providing. Look at the rebuilding effort the US is heading. What was the first ship brought in when it was safe? An aid ship. How can you say the US isn't taking care of the people after the liberation. I suppose we are taking all of that money and spending it out at area 51 and those ships of aid and trucks delivering food you see on the news are trick photography? I don't think so.

but as its obvious by your statement the wars just took place for money and land rather than for people.

The war was about ending a regime of evil before that evil could do more harm. Liberating the people under that regime was a major benefit. Please tell me where in anything I said I made it obvious that we are in it for the money (which no one can seem to locate) or land. If by "in it for the people" you mean that we were there to keep Saddam from testing weapons on them and from killing innocents when he decided to show the world how strong he was then yes we are there for the people. Again we are spending billions right now on Iraq, there is no money, deeds, or land rights coming back in to our bank accounts.

Unless I'm mistaken Al Guida did not blow up a new set of towers each year. Just because they have not done anything big, in the US, lately does not mean that the war on Terrorism is over.

Who said the war on terror was over? If you actually read what you wrote you said that Al-Qaeda is as strong as ever. I illustrated that they are not as strong as ever. At their strongest they murdered thousands by destroying the WTC. How you get "the war on terror is over" from that I don't know. Al-Qaeda is broken and weaker now than when they attacked us they are not as strong as ever!

The Defence minister hiomself said that the contracts would go to US companies, just after the end of the neverending war. Maybe he was misinformed as well.

Again go back and read what I wrote. Nobody is arguing that the contracts are not going to US companies. I was arguing why they went to the companies they went to. You tried to make it sound like these companies only got the job because they're friends with Bush. I let you know these companies stood on their own. Go back and read it again.

Lets look at fact that can not be changed:
Saddam is evil
Saddam is not longer in a position to kill millions
Iraq is getting aid
The US is spending billions on Iraq
Gas prices are up
The French, UN, AI, and Germany did not risk anything in this war and therefore get no benefit that may come down the road, nor do they share in the expense that we are incurring now.
Any financial benefit we get from this war in the next 50 years will just be enough to cover debt we acquired liberating, aiding and rebuilding Iraq

 

[dks]

Gordon you said:

Big whoop, the UN told us to disarm our citizens so what? Amnesty international can say whatever they want, who cares?

Amnesty international is the worlds only totally independent human rights organisation.

They say people are dying because of the war. GS, you say 'who cares'. I care, you dont seem to.

As long as you stick by your statement, then people will get the wrong view, as you claim, of your beliefs. If you clarify it it might be more obvious to us lesser mortals.

As for the UN being used a few months ago the US was claiming that because of the UN resolution before the first gulf war justified the second. Bush/Powel said it, not me.

Of course Arab governments make their people suffer, that was a big issue some time ago, whether western Democracy would suit the arabs who are used in a differnt way, and most of them seem happy with it.

In BC times, the area of palestine was Jewish, then after the Islamist empires took power of the region it became muslim, then in the end of the 2nd world war the area of palestine was given to the Jews as repayment for their suffering. The jews dont recognise the Arab nations and vice versa.

They both appear to be right, but the US sweetalked the Arab leaque, promising , as it has been done many times, to sort the issue out...and nothing happenned again.

Finally:

The French, UN, AI, and Germany did not risk anything in this war and therefore get no benefit that may come down the road, nor do they share in the expense that we are incurring now.

You are wrong, the US is trying/succeding to get the whole world to pay for the rebuilt, to pay US companies for the rebuilt that is. Just look at all the charity events throughout the world in aid of the Iraqies.
You will find a US ambassador attending them all.

If you look outside the US you will see that all the Islamist Terrorist groups are at their usuall level of activity.

Let me finish by saying I have no problem against Gordonsetter but I enjoy discussing with people about various topics.

 

[GordonSetter]

I don't care what AI has to say. They are as much a political orginization as CNN, Bardy, or even the NRA. AI is not an almighty rightous group that will do no wrong. They have thier political views like any other orginization and like any political group they will skew the facts to suit thier needs. I stand by my statement that I do not care what AI says! I do care about human rights and suffering. I do not think finger pointing and skewing facts will have any positive effect on the situation. AI has no solid facts about the quality of life while Saddam was in power because he altered the facts to make him look good. They only know what is happening now. Nobody can honestly claim Iraqi's were better off with Saddam. I can not claim they are better with us either. What I can show is that the state of Iraq is improving since we went in. In large there is more food, medical aid and clothing since we went in. If all of these things were to be had before we went in where did they go before we got there?

The UN resolution that the US signed and swore to uphold was used. The UN itself was not. The US by signing the resolution said "We will punish you if you do not follow this". We kept our promise. Our honor and word are more important to us than the money that France and Germany have been taking from Iraq.
Israel is sitting at the table to talk. Israel is not sending women and children to bomb anyone expecially inocent bystanders. The Palestinians on the other hand are not willing to talk and are bombing. Excuse US for taking the side of the rightous. You can not reconise a "state" that won't talk to you and only wants to kill you.

The US goverment has not orginized any fund raising in forien lands to rebuild Iraq. A represenitive of our goverment is at these functions to show support and graditude for the generosity of the people trying to help. The US has yet to come out and say "Give us money" but we also have yet to refuse any help that is volunteered. We would be fools to do that.

I do not disagree that terism in general is at the same level on the planet. The fact is that terrism is in a decline in the US and the UK. This shows that the terrist are not as strong as they were. It's like the bully that kicks the big kid on the plyground. The big kid finds the bully and kicks back. Then the bully hides and only cones out to kick the little kids, would you say that bully is as strong as ever? I would not.

I also have no issue with DKS. I simply do not like anyone telling me how I think or feel. I am the only person that knows that for sure. I can see how DKS could have been confussed about the who cares statment being about human right and not about what a political orginization says.

 

[dks]

(((Gordonsetter)))

As for PLO, they dont have much choice or control over Hamash....

 

[GordonSetter]

Are you hitting on me again?

Thanks for the debate man.

See we really are the friendliest forum on the net. We flame each other and argue then send flowers to the winner

JUST KIDDING

 

[Guest]

I find it interesting how people are unable to still see the obvious. During the openign weeks of the war(yes it is still going on) the biggest questions asked were about weapons of mass destruction, and civilian casualties.

As far as civilians go, please be reminded that during the Clinton Administration, a a group of our millitary men went into an african town to capture a ruthless dictator. They had no heavy armor support(tanks, etc.), no heavy air support(apaches, etc) and they went in in Hummers, Trucks, Blackhwaks, and Kiowa Warriors, and THEY WERE FORBIDDEN TO FIRE ON CIVILIANS. Sound familiar? IT should if you have ever seen the movie Black Hawk Down. The movie is based upon a true story, was made from statements from the parties involved. I don't know about anyone else, but it is upsetting to me to findout how our millitary eprsonel are treated over sees, and then to hear that soem of us Americansa re more concerned with the civilian casualties. For those of you who dont remember or have not seen the movie, in the latter half, the natives manage to overrun some amercain defensive points and murder(note i said murder not kill) UNARMED americans. At one point they strip down our mens' dead bodies and carry them around naked on their shoulders like trophies. At another point they tried to choke an unarmed pilot to death. Like I said this was a movie made from the statements of those people involved.

As far as weapons of mass decstruction go, may I offer a possibility...During the few weeks before the United States went into Iraq, the world was deadlocked over what shoul dbe done. If you will recall, civilians were entering Iraq for various reasons. Some to become human shields, otheres to protest, etc. Also, the UN was trying to pressure the United States to give Iraq more time. Does anyone else thinkt hat is possible that Saddam used that time to hide his weapons in more secure facilities or perhaps even to move them to another country. I find it hard to belive that the government would lie in a situation where they had to know that they would eventually be proven liars. And as far as conspiracy theories go, I do not doubt that they sometimes happen, but I think we all watch to much TV.

To be completely honest, Saddam needed to be taken out. He was rotten to the core. Defiant to the United States. Maybe that sounds egotisticalm but you guys know what? We have earned the right to think that way. We have fougth for our freedom and the freedom of the world. People say it was a joint effort that won the great World Wars, but it was the Americans that ended up makignt he difference. It is always the Americans who go in first, ready to do what needs to be done. We are the ones who do not run away but rather stand our ground. What do the french do? They run or go hide. It is the same with most of the rest of the world. Anyway Im out of time and have to go. Everyone haeva nice day and remember...Dotn be like the Dixie Chicks....Remember who you are and where you come from...and your parents and their parents who paid for this land.

 

[Philkuu]

Just remember how bad those civilians in Iraq had it under Sadaam. Sure they want us out of there. They want to get on with rebuilding a new government. It'd be like if our forefathers had help in the revolution from a major super power, but they wanted to stick around afterwards and oversee things. Our forefathers would no doubt rather just do it themselves. Fact is though, the Iraquis don't really have the government structure set up yet that they need to govern themselves and also they wouldn't be capable of stopping another tyrant from rising to power there before they get a democracy started.
I don't think the US is after oil at all. They stated numerous times that the oil is the property of the Iraqui people and it would stay that way. Sadaam was the one who STOLE from them! I just don't understand why some people are so blind. Do they not care at all what Sadaam was responsible for or do they just want a reason to ***** about our Commander in Chief? I think it was a more than justified war, even if they never found one spec of evidence of WMD. Yes I am concerned for the safety of our troops, and we all prayed for them and still continue to. No one wants our troops to be harmed. In some cases (like this one) it's just necessary that we take action when others aren't able to.
Do you really think the Iraqui people living in extreme poverty and having their women raped and tortured thought it was a good idea for Sadaam's regime to have golden toilets while they starved and suffered at their hand? I mean what could the people over there really do about it? It's not like they could have risen up against the regime and taken over. He was just way too powerful and they were just way to poor. There's no way the citizens could have overthrown his army on their own. I saw MANY Iraqui people rejoicing and thanking the US upon the fall of the regime.