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When I left Canada 35+ years ago after many enjoyable years, I'd reloaded tens of thousands of shotgun shells in four gauges because my main interest was NSSA skeet. The hulls I used were invariably Winchester AAs because up in Canada we mainly saw AAs and a few CILs. Remington and Peters hulls were pretty rare and Federals even rarer.

Now, if I read the situation correctly, the domestic North American shotgun ammunition market seems to have imploded and a large proportion of ammunition sold is imported from outside the US and Canada. Am I correct? I read about people buying RIOs, BPs, Gamebore......you name it.

Whatever happened to the dominance of the 'big three' (Winchester, Remington and Federal)?
 

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What happened is the internet. And shipping improvements. Add in US employment laws, mandated employee benefits, material restrictions and taxes. Together, they've combined to open up an entirely new markets. Hard to believe, but you can order a freight container full of high quality shotgun ammo from Italy and have it delivered to your dock for half of what a similar load of domestic shells would cost you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
JacksBack said:
Hard to believe, but you can order a freight container full of high quality shotgun ammo from Italy and have it delivered to your dock for half of what a similar load of domestic shells would cost you.
That's incredible! Is the US government about to take on those issues? Applied across the board, it'd mean US manufacturing is going to go bust.
 

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JacksBack said:
What happened is the internet. And shipping improvements. Add in US employment laws, mandated employee benefits, material restrictions and taxes. Together, they've combined to open up an entirely new markets. Hard to believe, but you can order a freight container full of high quality shotgun ammo from Italy and have it delivered to your dock for half of what a similar load of domestic shells would cost you.
Sorry, I don't buy the US employment laws and mandatory benefits, restrictions or taxes for the lack of competitive US producers. The laws, taxes, restrictions, are all much more in Europe. 30 hour work weeks, mandatory paid vacations, REACH registrations, health care more expensive in Europe (if you get to see a doctor before you die). They have invested in new and automated manufacturing equipment. Remington, Winchester, and Federal largely, have not. Rio built a new plant in Texas, where was the last new Remington plant built and when!
 

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Lexusclays said:
JacksBack said:
What happened is the internet. And shipping improvements. Add in US employment laws, mandated employee benefits, material restrictions and taxes. Together, they've combined to open up an entirely new markets. Hard to believe, but you can order a freight container full of high quality shotgun ammo from Italy and have it delivered to your dock for half of what a similar load of domestic shells would cost you.
Sorry, I don't buy the US employment laws and mandatory benefits, restrictions or taxes for the lack of competitive US producers. The laws, taxes, restrictions, are all much more in Europe. 30 hour work weeks, mandatory paid vacations, REACH registrations, health care more expensive in Europe (if you get to see a doctor before you die). They have invested in new and automated manufacturing equipment. Remington, Winchester, and Federal largely, have not. Rio built a new plant in Texas, where was the last new Remington plant built and when!
Remington can't even build a website that works.
 

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Considering the RIOs and Fiocchis are made HERE; that Estate is made here AND imported; that Winchester's cheap ammo is pure crap; and that ALL ammo has an 11% excise tax to pay for Pittman/Robertson one has to realize it is a global market.
 

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Old_Diabetic_100 said:
Whatever happened to the dominance of the 'big three' (Winchester, Remington and Federal)?
Who cares? "dominance" makes companies get lackadaisical about quality control and competitiveness.

Those big 3 are more concerned with the big Government/military contracts than they are with us.
 

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My guess is there is zero manual labor involved in building a box of shells - even in the most antiquated of factories.
 

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Strong dollar makes imports cheap.

Euro labor laws makes it hard to lay-off workers. When Euro demand drops they keep running their lines and cut prices......international prices if required and dump product here.
 

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Old_Diabetic_100 said:
JacksBack said:
Hard to believe, but you can order a freight container full of high quality shotgun ammo from Italy and have it delivered to your dock for half of what a similar load of domestic shells would cost you.
That's incredible! Is the US government about to take on those issues? Applied across the board, it'd mean US manufacturing is going to go bust.
Hell no! The only issue that excites the US government is more restrictions on any type of gun or ammo. Ammo is hard to find and expensive? Great! We have worked hard to make that happen!
 

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albatros said:
Hell no! The only issue that excites the US government is more restrictions on any type of gun or ammo. Ammo is hard to find and expensive? Great! We have worked hard to make that happen!
Boy, non kidding, huh ?
 

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Remington just built a new ammo plant in AL. That, and I shoot nothing but Remington products and think they're just fine. Everyone has their own opinion. At my club Win, Rem, and Fed are the only shotgun shells you'll find on the ground when looking for empties to reload.
 

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I have no problem with Remington ammo, it is fine ammo. But if you want their top of the line target ammo, you need to find a Wallmart and you need to buy it box by box (not flat.) If are going to the biggest trap shooting event in the world and want to shoot Remington ammo, you better take it with you cause you can't buy it there.
 

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Thank You NAFTA !

This countries Businesses are either failing or moving out of this country ?
Pretty soon , we'll have more indians , than chief's sitting on the porch....waving !
 

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...simple, pay 2 bucks more for domestic quality ammo and the manufacturers would start to produce more and take pride in their product. I remember the days when a shotgun shell would be an attractive item. Today most domestic shotshells look like they were made in some shed in china.
 

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I once heard that an ammo company in Mexico or South America, was running a couple Spolar loaders, as their production line?
 

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Old_Diabetic_100 said:
When I left Canada 35+ years ago after many enjoyable years, I'd reloaded tens of thousands of shotgun shells in four gauges because my main interest was NSSA skeet. The hulls I used were invariably Winchester AAs because up in Canada we mainly saw AAs and a few CILs. Remington and Peters hulls were pretty rare and Federals even rarer.

Now, if I read the situation correctly, the domestic North American shotgun ammunition market seems to have imploded and a large proportion of ammunition sold is imported from outside the US and Canada. Am I correct? I read about people buying RIOs, BPs, Gamebore......you name it.

Whatever happened to the dominance of the 'big three' (Winchester, Remington and Federal)?
The same thing that happened to the "big three" auto companies. Competition helps the consumer.
 

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John Henry said:
I once heard that an ammo company in Mexico or South America, was running a couple Spolar loaders, as their production line?
At least they had the smarts to select the right machines, huh ? Seems they had some sense of quality control ...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
IndyCA35 said:
Old_Diabetic_100 said:
When I left Canada 35+ years ago after many enjoyable years, I'd reloaded tens of thousands of shotgun shells in four gauges because my main interest was NSSA skeet. The hulls I used were invariably Winchester AAs because up in Canada we mainly saw AAs and a few CILs. Remington and Peters hulls were pretty rare and Federals even rarer.

Now, if I read the situation correctly, the domestic North American shotgun ammunition market seems to have imploded and a large proportion of ammunition sold is imported from outside the US and Canada. Am I correct? I read about people buying RIOs, BPs, Gamebore......you name it.

Whatever happened to the dominance of the 'big three' (Winchester, Remington and Federal)?
The same thing that happened to the "big three" auto companies. Competition helps the consumer.
I can't disagree with that.

Help me with this one: If you take, say, 1980 US prices for a case of 500 Winchester AA 12G trap or skeet shells, how does that compare with the price of an equivalent imported case (you'd probably say "two flats" now) these days factoring in inflation and cost of living. Is the relative cost of the ammo you buy now cheaper by virtue of imports, staying the same or getting more expensive? Just curious........

FWIW the price of ammunition in Argentina would make your eyes water :( .
 

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Old_Diabetic_100 said:
Is the relative cost of the ammo you buy now cheaper by virtue of imports, staying the same or getting more expensive? Just curious........( .
US ammunition is cheaper because of imports.

There wouldn't be Top Guns, Estates, Gun Clubs, or Super-Targets on the market if there wasn't competition from imports.

When the dollar was weak a few years ago the price of imported ammo increased. So did the price of domestic ammo.
 
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