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Hello,I´m a student at a German school, and along with two other people I work on a project, that is about guns in America.As you may perhaps know, in Germany not everyone may have a gun - you either have to buy it illegally or you must have some kind of special license.Although I don´t have a gun, I´m not too anxious, that I get killed, as soon as I leave the house. (Maybe that´s due to the fact, that actually there aren´t too many German people having guns?!)And as you can see - I´m still alive, although I never touched a gun, and although I don´t intend to do so in the future.My questions to all of you are the following:Why do you think, that you must own guns? Wouldn´t it be better, if you wouldn´t have to need them?How do you think about the law - is it really so good, that everyone may possess a gun in America? Isn´t this making it easier for the criminals to shoot your brain? I mean - without guns they couldn´t shoot you, and you wouldn´t have to defend yourself.How do you think about the many Germans/people in other countries, who are against the free distribution of guns like me? Do you think we´re kind of too courageous?I´m looking forward to your responses.Regards!
 

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criminals do not generally go thro legal ways to get guns.here in Australia it is very hard to get handguns legally but there is someone in every pub who will sell you one. tight firearms laws only cause problems for law abiding citizens crooks will always get all the guns they want.in 1996 our gun laws became ridiculous since then the amount of guns in crimes went UP. OK touchy subject with me I'll stop now before I write something I regret.
 

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No offence intended , but you have the misunderstanding of why Americans love guns and posess them common in European countries. We don't have to need guns, we choose to own them. It's a Freedom thing. You are ignoring your own history, had the citizens not been summarily disarmed would Hitlers rise to power have been so easy? The law doesn't say that we may own them , the law says we cannot be denied them. The Right of self-defence is God given, it's a basic human Right, as is the Right to remove a tyranical government. People like you too courageous? No, I think you are like sheep. Following along behind your leader and always fearing the wolf. Americans do not have to depend on the police for their protection unless they choose to do so."I mean - without guns they couldn´t shoot you, and you wouldn´t have to defend yourself." That has to be the strangest logic I've heard in a long time. They would still be able to shoot you (criminals by defintion do not follow the law and would not turn their guns in) they would also still be able to stab you, club you, groups could overpower you. And you WOULDN'T BE ABLE o defend yourself.How does your logic on crime and gun control stand up against the FACT that anywhere that Concealed Carry Laws have become standard , violent crimes have gone down? How does you logic stand up to the FACT that in Britain where private ownership of guns are highly restricted , the police have had to start carrying guns?You may talk like your country is some utopia of peace and love where crime and fear do not exist, but, I know several people who have recently immigrated to the U.S. from Germany , and what they told me is diametrically opposite to what you say.
 

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To say the least. Lets not forget the very liberal rules that the German police operate under and that they carry automatic weapons as part of routine patrol.Do not fall for the Hollywood myth that ALL Americans love guns or have them. Those that are legally allowed to have them can, however the issues with gun crime are generally committed by illiegally gained firearms. As Marland stated concerning the Britts, you should follow the stats and see where the absurd idea of gun bans has not only failed but stimulates gun related crimes and impacts lawful citizens, not the criminals.There is a history of firearms, some romanicized by Western writers and the likes of Ian Flemming's James Bond where the good guys win the day with firepower. However, the avg American has a firearm as a tool used in recreation, protection, or both. The police can not be everywhere at once and is every citizens right to protect life and property, you do have locks on your doors and fences around your houses? Using your logic, why not just leave the yards open and take off the doors so that the criminals can have easy access and not damage the doors or gates as they cart off your stuff?Try the concept of implied threat. Who would you want to try and attack? Someone that you know has a very good chance of not having a weapon or someone that has a very good chance of having a weapon? It is the implied threat that there is a concealed weapon that keeps the criminal at bay.
 

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In America, as in Germany, there are two groups of people that own guns:1) People that buy them legally2) criminals that buy them illegallyWe have many laws that determine who may buy a gun legally. Our laws do not allow convicted criminals to buy guns.So we have ordinary citizens that own guns, and they do not commit crimes with them, and they do not shoot each other. This is somewhat different than in Germany, where gun ownership is more restricted.We have criminals with guns that were obtained illegally. They commit crimes and occasionally they shoot people.Some Americans use their legally owned guns to protect themselves from criminals. Criminals would rather attack unarmed victims. Unarmed victims are not going to fight back or harm the criminal.If we make a new law that says all guns are illegal, what would happen? Our law-abiding citizens would turn in their guns. After all, they follow the law. The criminals would keep their guns. They are already breaking the law. Why would they turn in their guns? They would not turn in their guns.So then only the criminals would have guns. The criminals would know that no ordinary citizens have guns. The criminals could attack any citizen with very little fear. No law abiding citizen would have the ability to fight back.That is the simple argument.Our country's founders wanted a new form of government where the rights of the people would not be overrun by the government. An unarmed population is easily controlled by an armed government that may or may not do what is best for the people. This is the tyranny that they feared. Having seen the governments of Europe and other countries throughout history, they decided that every citizen should have the right to own guns. They believed that this was the only way to ensure that the government would not become a tyranny over its citizens. The government should know that the citizens possess the means to rise up and overthrow the government if the government ever gets out of control.Throughout history, tyrants (dictators) have taken control and remained in power by disarming the people. The tyrant will say that disarming the people is in the interests of safety and security. What they don't tell you is that they mean the safety and security of the tyrant, not of the people. Once the people are disarmed, it is nearly impossible to depose the tyrant.I'd better stop now. This was supposed to be a simple explanation. Casual ShooterOne gun does it all when one gun is all you have!
 

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Quote:Throughout history, tyrants (dictators) have taken control and remained in power by disarming the people.Like for example making Iraq Destroy all its weapons and then attacking it! How stupid can Saddam be??(No, Im not implying that US is run by tyrans, its just that everybody knew that the US will invade whatever happenned apart from Saddam.)I found that quite amusing, typical of the stupidity/desperation of many leaders in that area of the world.If only Sadam 'no brains' had read your comment earlier CS. :rollin ITS NOT HOW WELL YOU SHOOT, ITS HOW MUCH NOISE YOUR GUN MAKES.
 

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Okay....I've argued this point so much I can do it in my sleep:If they took guns away from the law abiding citizens, then only criminals would have guns. Do you honestly believe that a person who chooses to use a gun in a violent crime actually goes to a reputable gun dealer, fills out the paperwork, and buys a gun? If you do, you are sadly mistaken. The guns used in crimes are stolen from a wide variety of sources. To reiterate: if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns.Canada is living proof that you cannot get the guns from citizens. Their program is failing miserably and what was only supposed to cost a couple million has become so expensive, they cannot continue it. And to make matters worse, only a small percentage of owners have come forward to register their guns. Are they not registering them to become criminals? Absolutely not.Britain's gun laws are also failing. Citizens can't have guns = violent crimes increase because criminals know that citizens cannot defend themselves.On the other hand, various states in the U.S. who have passed concealed carry laws are seeing major (yes major) decreases in violent crime. Why? Because if you are walking down the street trying to pick someone out of the crowd to mug, you have no clue who could defend themselves with deadly force. Great deterent in my book!I truly LOVE guns. I LOVE them. I grew up with them, they have provided countless hours of recreation with my father and my brothers. Times I will never forget. I CHERISH the guns I own, and COVET the ones I don't. It isn't a survivalist, paramilitary attitude, it's more like owning a fine work of art or a classic automobile. You can't explain why it touches you deeply, it just does, and you can't expect everybody to look on it with the same appreciative eyes that you yourself do.Mars is right - it's a Freedom thing. It's an American thing. And if we weren't nuts about guns, perhaps we would still be british subjects, or have a history of tyrannical leaders (Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, stop me when you get my point...).If you were American, you wouldn't need it expalined to you. You would know and feel it too. Mike RossThe Cartridge GuysLife Member, North American Hunting ClubMember, National Rifle AssociationMember, Meeker Co. Historical SocietyEdited by: MTRoss at: 4/8/03 11:28:59 am
 

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Guest , maybe you'd like to explain your logic in comparison to Switzerland where virtually every home has a fully automatic weapon in it yet has very little violent crime.Also , maybe you'd like to register with the forum, or do you have fear that someone would know who you are by doing so? News flash! Your IP is alreay recorded.
 

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Our guest is just asking a question for research. Perhaps we can make him see the light. Perhaps not. Either way, we can keep it friendly.Truthfully, his is a common opinion for anyone that has done little or no research on the subject. When people begin to think about gun control, the first instinct is that if guns are banned, then there won't be any gun violence. This point of view seems logical, and it would even be true if we had the ability to eliminate all guns from the planet. The key to this research is taking the next step, and realizing that it is impossible to remove guns from society, and that gun laws are only obeyed by people that obey the law. That sounds redundant but the point is that criminals are ignoring the existing gun laws.... so any new gun laws will be ignored by criminals as well. While this seems obvious to all of us, it is a new concept to many people. I don't blame them for the conclusions they have drawn. I just try to enlighten them on how it really is.Guest, I am like you. I do not leave my house and fear that I will be killed where I live. But I understand that some people live in cities that are more dangerous than mine. I would never deny them the ability to defend themselves. I do not carry a gun for protection. I use mine for recreation. Casual ShooterOne gun does it all when one gun is all you have!
 

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Hi,first of all I´d like to thank everyone, who replied to my thread. I already posted the same text into another forum, where I got only little response.The reason I haven´t registered is quite simple: I don´t want to register to forums, that I probably don´t want to use again - and it is already said - my IP is recorded, so this hasn´t anything to do with concerns about my privacy."casual shooter" - I have to admit, that I never really did research on the subject, and I don´t know, if I ever will - I was just interested in your opinions.I know, that criminal people get guns anyway, and in case that gun ownership gets forbidden, the normal people couldn´t defend themselves. But please don´t forget - that´s the "problem" we have to deal with in Germany - anyway there are far less deaths caused by guns (not just in total, but also in relative calculation).So why is this?I got reminded here of Hitler - so it can´t be due to our peaceful past. What is it then?Do you think it´s possible, that the ownage of guns makes it easier for people, to be keen about them - and not just in a peaceful way like you - but also in a criminal one?Thanks again in advance for responding :)
 

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One of the reasons that a great deal of Americans have guns is simply for hunting, recreation, and yes, self preservation.One of the reasons that we have a "Right to keep and bear" firearms, is based on the fact that the founders of our country wanted to ensure that we could always protect the freedom that they risked there lives to have.In 227 years, the citizens of the United States of America have enjoyed freedom. We have never had a dictator, we have never been controled by another country. No other country has ever successfully invaded the United States. We have not always had the military we do now. After World War II, our military suffered sever cut-backs. Without our guns, we very well could have been invaded, or the government overthrown.On a side note, of course you have less gun related deaths, you have less guns. The percentage stays the same, we have more guns out there. Also, for every 1 bullet used to commit a crime in the US, over 2,000,000,000,000 are fired safely. We have more car accidents than that..... and you can't outlaw cars.
 

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What was the saying the Germans had for oh say about that last 100 years..."Alles Todt"? (sp?)
 

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well, i think it is important to own guns for couple of reasons.
1st. to protect myself & my family from our corrupt governemnt.
2nd. to protect myself & my family from criminals.

like it was said here before, criminals usually don't get their guns the legal way. regardless of how many gun laws there are, criminals will always be able to get guns. ordinary citizens must posses guns to protect themselves from these criminals.

private gun ownership is what keeps our country from becoming a totaliterean or communistic country. here is an analogy i heard. many animals that eat grass have horns, but you don't need horns to eat grass. the horns are to educate the lions to stay off your back while you eat the grass. now if lions could vote, do you think they woudl outlaw horns?

it gives a good picture of what gun ownership & gun control are about. anybody that wants to kill/opress/enslave/control a people must first disarm them, and that is what gun control is all about.

would things be better in our country if private gun ownership was outlawed? no, statistics prove that over and over again.
the bottom line is, guns are a neccesary tool of freedom.
 

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My ancestory is German and Polish, so I am not going to diss you. I own guns because I like to go hunting. My primary reason for owning firearms is hunting, not self defense. I hunt whitetail deer in the fall and turkey in the spring. I find that hunting gives me a feeling of being closer to nature than I would by just simply hiking or camping. I have have hiked and camped for the better part of two decades.

Now I did not start hunting till my forties. I kinda understand what you are talking about. Guns can be scary, they have the ability to fatally harm someone. But, I have had the good fotune to have had friends, long time hunters who were both careful and conscientious in their hunting habits. They introduced me to these tools of the trade and taught me to properly respect them. The closest analogy I might make is that of German high performance automobiles. You folks have the autobahns, Where there are no speed limits (at least the last that I knew),

Driving at 140 mph would be unnerving to me, but you folks are used to it. The same could be said with firearms. You Germans have little experience with them, but us yanks are exposed to them all the time. We are familier with them from childhood on up. Just likle you are familier with high performance automobiles from childhood on up.

I belive that firearms are just like any other bit of technology. If you are familiear with them, no problem, if its new, its scary.

Not all of us yanks have weapons. some of us realize our limitations and don't own them. I like hunting and all that that means to me, early mornings in the woods listening to variuos birds and mammals.

My education is also in physics and mathematics, so I kinda take naturely to ballistics
(I know my spelling sucks, but screw it), so I like firearms from a purely scienctific point of view. What I am trying to say is that since you don't have familiarity with firearms, they naturally seem scary. but with proper learning, I think you might actually enjoy them, independent of what harm they could do to someone. much like you could enjoy a Porsche at 140 mph.
 
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Our founding fathers thought a standing army was always a bad ideal, so the citizens would keep the country free, protect it and the government, and keep the government in check. Most Germans may not know, but we have something called the bill of rights, its the first 10 amendments in the constitution , the 2nd one being "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. " That basically means the people have a right to own guns, not a permission, and not only should there be no laws, no one should infringe on it, including businesses or anywhere else any other person can go, like in theory you should be able to look in a magazine, mail order a gun without the government knowing have it shipped right to your door without the government having to know, and be able to carry it to the supermarket without anyones permission. But the supreme court hasn't took a case on the 2nd amendment since the 1940s, they had a more conservative view on what it means, They misinterpret it to mean the militia (anyone american basicly) has the right to own any guns with a military purpose and doesn't protect the weapons that don't have a military purpose in there view, ie a short barrel shotgun which does in fact have a very important purpose in war at that time, in fact it worked so good the German government tried to ban it from war because it was inhumane but would protect weapons like the stringer missile and anti tank weapons and full auto m-16s. But in reality, all weapons have a purpose in war.

I just turned 18 so I just started on my gun collection and never fired a gun before I bought mine. I started getting into them after I started working on a mod for a game as a modeler and I had to make weapons and started reading about them and it just grew from there. The reason I bought the only gun I have now was for target practice and fun because a .22 isn't very good for self protection, but its better than a bat. And I plan to buy a semi auto Ak-47 next because the full autos cost alot more about 10,000 usd rather than the 300 for the semi because they was banned and only a limited number of them are in America now. But the reason for having one, fun shooting it, and protection but I shouldn't have to state a reason for wanting to own one or owning one. And in my state to own a Ak-47 all you have to do it fill out of paper, mostly yes and no questions, do a background check and you can walk out the door with a rifle.

I'm Libertarian so I belive you should be able to do what you want with your money or your body.

Here is a very long forum about gun control on another board. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s ... adid=27373
 

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Couple of things, we maintain the right to keep and bear arms in order to defend ourselves from those who would wish us harm. Either foreign (Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito etc...) or domestic. Our fore father believed it was important we maintain our own weapons in order to protect ourselves primarily from our own government. Don't worry guys I'm not an anti government wacko. Personally I keep weapons for two reasons hunting and self defense. In nations where guns are banned they still have murders and violent crimes most of which involves guns. Funny how that works, not to mention more people die in vehicle accidents than die in gun accidents and I don't see anybody calling to outlaw cars.

Statistically it be safer to have a gun in your house than to drive the Autobahn.
 

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I don't disagree with anything that any of you have said about protection. I have a concealed carry, but never pack. I can if I should ever feel the need to though. I like that. Just knowing that I can makes me feel safer. I don't worry about being hurt or robbed. It's not in my nature to worry myself about that.

I will also second what has been said about not understanding guns until you become used to them. I also thought that gun control seemed reasonable and that the semi-automatic assault rifle ban seemed like more than a good idea to me. After I actually shot one I understood the appeal. I bought one and didn't ever want to have it taken away. I got a few more. I studied the ban on the assault rifles and it doesn't even make sense not that I know what it is all about.

I liked gun control before, but it was never a deciding factor for me while voting. Now I write letters to my elected representatives urging them to vote down anti-gun laws. I like them to know that I, one of the people in charge of whether or not they are able to maintain their position, am of the opinion that the 2nd amendment should be interpreted literally. What out founding fathers wrote was what they meant to say. I am also an active NRA instructor. I work to educate people, esp. kids, on how to safely handle firearms. When used correctly firearms are a lot of fun and also quite usefull. I am almost certain that our guest has never tasted good fresh venison or a thick delicious elk steak. He or she (guest has never indicated either sex.) might understand after experiencing the great things like that that this country has to offer. In a crowded European country I can't imagine that gun ownership could even be as rewarding as it is here. For that matter I have a hard time imagining that gun ownership in a crowded eastern state could be as rewarding as owning here in the wide open, beautiful western states.

Oh yeah, my concealed carry has nearly paid for itself. There is a local SLC computer company called Totally Awsome Computers that gives a $100 discount on their computers if you have a permit. The permit ended up costing around $130 after the class and all of the other things you have to pay for were taken in to account for. www.totallyawsome.com
 

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One more P.S.

I personally think that my guns are 1,000X safer than my Skyline that really doesn't like to go under 120mph. I can't imagine how much safer it is than say a Porshe GT3 or something really fast.
 
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