[dubob]

It is March 18, 2023. There are a couple of active threads on SGW at this time discussing shotgun shell pressure limits and/or standards in the USA. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) is an association of the nation’s leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components. It was founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and tasked with:

• Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality;
• Coordinating technical data;
• Promoting safe and responsible firearms use.

SAAMI’s Strategic Goals are to:

1. Create and maintain technical standards for terminology, performance, interchangeability, and safety regarding firearms, ammunition, and their components;
2. Continually improve and share their expertise with foreign and domestic policy makers and strategic partners related to technical performance and safety regarding firearm and ammunition manufacturers’ issues;
3. Continually improve the forum by which members consider and analyze relevant internal and external standards and policies regarding firearms, ammunition, and their components;
4. Monitor, anticipate, and address new technologies, opportunities, challenges, and emerging trends impacting the mission of SAAMI;
5. Maintain and increase SAAMI’s standing as the foremost technical expert in our fields.

SAAMI’s Mission statement says:

“To create and promulgate technical, performance, interchangeability, and safety standards for firearms, ammunition, and components; and to be the preeminent global resource for the safe and responsible manufacturing, transportation, storage, and use of these products.”

So, SAAMI has been around for about 97 years and their established standards are the yard-sticks by which all things firearm related are measured against. Adherence to these standards is voluntary and by most accounts is done industry wide in the USA. There have been a couple examples shown on these pages recently where some factory produced ammunition appears to exceed the pressure limit standards set forth by SAAMI and this is what seems to be driving the current SGW threads.

Reading those threads daily is producing some comic relief for me from some of the really depressing daily news about the current shape of our country. And it got me to thinking about something that I don’t recall every seeing in SGW since I joined in 2007. And that would be this – I don’t recall every seeing a legitimate report of a shotgun being blown apart SOLELY from an over-pressure shotgun shell. In other words, the barrel did not have ANY foreign material lodged in the barrel such as, but not limited to, mud, snow, wad, base wad, smaller gauge shell, etc. Anybody know of ANY case where a shotgun was blown apart by a shell of the correct gauge and dimensions but exceeded the SAAMI pressure standards for that shotgun as built? The case has to be 100% verifiable that the barrel was free of an obstruction and the over pressure shotgun shell was proven to be the cause.

The reason I’m asking is this – we are being told on a daily basis that we should ALWAYS follow reloading recipes to prevent exceeding SAAMI pressure standards and blowing up a shotgun. And I have never seen a documented case where that was proved beyond any doubt that an over pressure shotgun shell was the cause of a blown-up shotgun.

Sherman Bell wrote a series of articles for Double Gun Journal where he attempted to blow up Damascus barreled shotguns. He tried various degrees of over pressure loads and couldn’t get them to blow up until the pressures were 4 or 5 times normal – like 50,000 psi. These were very old Damascus barrels. And Damascus is no where near as strong as today’s modern steel.

So, do you know of a documented, proven case where a shotgun shell exceeding SAAMI pressure standards blew apart an un-plugged shotgun barrel? I'm just curious. And before anybody thinks otherwise, I am NOT advocating that reloading recipes can or should be ignored when reloading ammunition.

 

[RandyWakeman]

So, do you know of a documented, proven case where a shotgun shell exceeding SAAMI pressure standards blew apart an un-plugged shotgun barrel? I'm just curious. And before anybody thinks otherwise, I am NOT advocating that reloading recipes can or should be ignored when reloading ammunition.

Go to 7:36.

 

[Steve Y]

So, do you know of a documented, proven case where a shotgun shell exceeding SAAMI pressure standards blew apart an un-plugged shotgun barrel?

Nobody does because the shell in question used was fired to blow up the barrel. Evidence was destroyed.

Steve

 

[The Happy Kaboomer]

That's an old Miculek video about barrel obstruction and has now bearing on overloaded shells.

 

[Drew Hause]

Tom Roster couldn't burst an 870 barrel at 55,000 psi
Important Information About Shotshell Pressures - Shotgun Life

Bruce Bowen could not burst a H&R single at 50,000 psi

The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal “Finding Out For Myself” series by Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust
Vol 10, Issue 2, Summer 1999, Part 1, p. 9
Vol 10, Issue 4, Winter 1999, p. 21 - Destructive testing of Parker GH Damascus
Vol 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005 - Destructive testing of Parker VH Vulcan Steel
Both guns were subjected to sequentially higher pressure loads at about 2,000 pounds/square inch (psi) increments. The GH testing started at 11,900 psi and one chamber ruptured at 29,620 psi. The VH started with a Remington Proof Load of 18,560 psi.
Both chambers bulged at 29,620 psi and ruptured at 31,620 psi.
Vol 17, Issue 3, Autumn 2006, p. 12 - Destructive testing 8 Damascus doubles
Vol 17, Issue 4, Winter 2006, p. 28 - Destructive testing 7 Damascus
Vol 18, Issue 1, Spring 2007 -

1. Destructive testing on a Damascus barrel with thinned walls; calculated by O.D. - I.D. and not measured.
2. Destructive testing using various obstructions, including a 20g shell.
3. Destructive testing using a shell loaded with 3 1/4 Drams by volume or 56 grains of Unique (similar to “Infallible”) with 1 1/4 oz. shot. The chamber burst with the first shot.
   The 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent load is 24 grains of “Infallible”.

Vol 19, Issue 2, Summer 2008, p. 18 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 6 Twist
Vol 20, Issue 3, Autumn 2009, p. 108 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 5 Twist “Bottom-Of-The-Barrel Wall-Hangers”

Total 28 vintage doubles/54 Twist and Damascus barrels + 2 Vulcan (Fluid) Steel


Unobstructed barrels, without defects or modification (thin walls) are very difficult to burst.

 

[RandyWakeman]

That's an old Miculek video about barrel obstruction and has now bearing on overloaded shells.

Yes, it does. The gun was intentionally destroyed with an intentionally overloaded shell starting at 7:36.

 

[RandyWakeman]

So, do you know of a documented, proven case where a shotgun shell exceeding SAAMI pressure standards blew apart an un-plugged shotgun barrel?

We know of many. How do we know? Many shotguns have failed proof-firing, and we know what proof-load pressures are.

 

[Steve Y]

Many shotguns have failed proof-firing,

Is every barrel proof tested before being sold??
Steve

 

[John H]

There is such a thing as fatigue as well. Metals can fail even if stressed below yield point if cycled enough. Holes, notches, radii, threads are all stress risers and will locally stress the metal much higher than pr/t . I have no idea if the proof test strategy is high enough to prove out fatigue points, or if it just adds a high damage cycle to the life history of the metal. Routinely pushing the limits though can and will add up.

 

[RandyWakeman]

Is every barrel proof tested before being sold??
Steve

No. It depends on the manufacturer.

 

[dubob]

Go to 7:36.

I have some additional comments after looking at that video.

An unknown overpressure shell was fired in the shotgun and the shotgun did blow up. We don’t know how much the pressure from that shell exceeded SAAMI published safe limits. We don’t know if his handloaded overpressure shell exceeded a normal 12 GA shotgun proof round. We don’t know how much damage (metal fatigue) was done to the shotgun after it was fired with a 20 GA shell inserted ahead of a 12 GA shell and before firing his overpressure reload. He didn’t fire a duplicate overpressure shell through a barrel that hadn’t been stressed prior to firing an overpressure shell. The video did show us that a shotgun a/o a barrel can blow-up under certain conditions.

What I was actually trying to establish in my OP was if there are any documented cases of a factory produced shotgun shell – such as the Max 1050 BAR shells mentioned in other threads – ever been proven to be unsafe in any shotgun barrel. And have any reloads exceeding SAAMI pressure limits by a few hundred to maybe a couple thousand psi ever been documented as the cause of a blown barrel/shotgun.

Some of our SGW Members (me included) have sent reloads off for testing. Some have posted the results showing averages above the SAAMI MAP figure. Have any of those folks ever shot the load anyway and blown up a shotgun barrel/shotgun? Or do we know somebody that was dumb enough to do that and ended up with a destroyed shotgun or barrel?

We know of many. How do we know? Many shotguns have failed proof-firing, and we know what proof-load pressures are.

Can you be more specific? Were the burst items tested in the USA? Were they USA made shotguns? At what level of proof shell pressure did they burst at? Are there any videos available that document the failure?

 

[Edm1]

I shoot old sxs shotguns. I am more concerned about the lockup and mechanisms and stock getting ruined or damaged from high pressure rounds than the barrel exploding.

 

[kipk49]

Obviously you can blow up an unobstructed barrel if you deliberately intend to - fill the hull with Norma R1 and away you go.

Now, for something like a 10-20% overpressure (ie Bubba's pissin' hawt handloads, a minor factory error, or similar) multiple authors and experimenters have shown that the average shotgun barrel will readily take such abuse. If it's a break-action gun, damage or significantly accelerated wear in the action and locking mechanism may result.

 

[RandyWakeman]

I have some additional comments after looking at that video.

What I was actually trying to establish in my OP was if there are any documented cases of a factory produced shotgun shell – such as the Max 1050 BAR shells mentioned in other threads – ever been proven to be unsafe in any shotgun barrel. And have any reloads exceeding SAAMI pressure limits by a few hundred to maybe a couple thousand psi ever been documented as the cause of a blown barrel/shotgun.

Documented by the courts are certainly documentation, is it not? "Any shotgun barrel" covers a lot of ground, far more than I care to delve into, in great detail.

RE:Loitz v. Remington Arms Co.

"Defendant has no records of the circumstances involving the 94 prior similar explosions and claims that all such explosions are due to high pressure shotgun shells. Hutton testified to another 100 Model 1100 barrel explosions in 1979 alone." "Defendant does not conduct examinations after the proof testing to determine if there are defects or cracks in the barrel which might have been started by the proof test itself. Only a visual inspection is made of the gun barrel after proof test. Nothing is done after proof testing to inspect the inside of the barrel for cracks."

"At trial, Dr. David Levinson presented the plaintiff's expert testimony. He stated that AISI 1140 modified steel contained tiny particles of manganese sulfide known as inclusions which were the cause of microscopic cracks which may develop during the proof testing of the shotguns. These cracks grow each time normal shells are fired until the crack reaches such a size that the shotgun fails catastrophically when a normal shell is fired."

Following a jury trial conducted in the circuit court of Douglas County, the jury returned a verdict in favor of the plaintiff and against defendant, awarding $75,000 compensatory damages and $1,600,000 punitive damages. It was upheld on appeal.

It was a scathing rebuke:
• 24 Certainly, $1.6 million is a lot of money. And it would seem inappropriate to have this plaintiff get a windfall, where plaintiffs like Moore get no direct benefit, particularly in light of the fact that the object of punitive damages is to penalize and deter defendant, not to compensate plaintiff. However, given defendant's action, the judicial conscience of this court is not overly shocked by this award. It is possible a jury in the future could present an even greater award if defendant persists in failing to warn, or perhaps to recall. Nor should this court necessarily be concerned with the general argument that manufacturers might go out of business. It may be that the activity of a particular manufacturer is so reprehensible that the manufacturer ought to be put out of business. Accordingly, it is the determination of this court that there exists neither a basis for reversing the punitive damage award in this case nor for granting defendant a remittitur.

For the foregoing reasons, the judgment of the circuit court of Douglas County is affirmed.

Affirmed.

LUND and KNECHT, JJ., concur.

 

[dubob]

Documented by the courts are certainly documentation, is it not?

"It certainly is, Ollie!"

Interesting case - I read through over half of it. Lots of legal stuff there. What's interesting in that case is the number of ‘claimed’ barrel bursts from overpressure. Remington ‘claimed’ that all 94 were from overpressure – even the 5 where factory ammunition was used. Also, of interest to me, is the fact that there was no definitive proof given by Remington at trial backing up their claim. They had a committee consisting of Remington employees that performed investigations of accidents, but I didn’t see any mention of a summary report for any of or all of the 94 investigations that indicated any evidence of the root cause of the failure. What tests did they perform that 100% proves it was failure from overpressure? Just saying it was caused by overpressure doesn’t count.

Yes, barrels burst. Yes, courts have ruled that the company that built the barrels that subsequently burst can be held liable for damages caused from the bursting. Yes, barrels can burst during proof testing as you documented in a video about the London Proof House some years ago (just saw it this morning). But where are the physical test results that definitively show the cause is overpressure?

 

[Skeet_Man]

A triple charge of Titegroup can fit in a 12 gauge target load with little external evidence. I'm guessing that would cause a gun to disintegrate. These shells were loaded on a MEC, if you were to load on a Spolar or PW which has a fixed rigid wad ram, I suspect it would be possible to get a quad charge of Titegroup to fit.

Decided to pull the machine up to the bench and conduct an experiment. GC hull, Titegroup, CB1100 wad, 1oz of lead. From left to right, 17.7gr (std charge), 35.4gr (double charge), 53.1gr (triple charge). Full disclosure, I put about 40 hulls on the table and chose the shortest one for the 17.7 load, and tallest one for 53.1 load, to give them all the best chance of looking correct, which is entirely plausible to expect would happen when loading.

Std charge is slightly dished in, double charge looks nearly perfect. Although I've seen as much or more crimp depth variation between shells that came off the machine one after the other due to length variation, so I personally wouldn't think ANYTHING was different b/w the two. The triple charge spilled a half dozen pellets at the start crimp, and crimped 95% normal looking on the final crimp with a couple pellets showing at the mouth, and slight buckling at the sides, again not something that is terribly uncommon to happen when everything is 100% normal and correct due to hull variation, definitely not something that'd make me stop and think "man, there's a triple charge in there".

Point being is that given the right set of circumstances, a double load is ENTIRELY possible with very little to no visual indication, and even a triple load is possible and would require an EXTREME (to the point of near absurdity) attention to detail to tell that anything was wrong. I'm NOT saying that's what the cause of this failure was, but I'm also guessing that most guns would come unglued given a triple charge of powder.

 

[ohio mike]

There's been a lot of concern here and at 16gauge.com about the new Greendot giving over pressure results from published recipes. Perhaps that's what Bob's referring to. Think of all the tens of thousands of reloaders out there who don't follow this stuff like the folks on here do. They bought a reloader and set it up for a now outmoded recipe years ago out of the Lyman fifth. They use whatever primer is available, don't even own a scale and have loading away for years.They may or not be beating their guns to death but you sure don't hear about them turning into grenades. I can personally attest to a over pressure factory load (Hyper Sonics) destroying a Remington CTI. It split the Forearm, jammed the bolt back into the receiver, and I don't remember what else. It did give me a bloody nose. Point being the barrel didn't rupture. Remington had me send the gun and ammunition back to them and a week later I had a brand new gun and a ammo voucher.

 

[Ravenanme]

There's been a lot of concern here and at 16gauge.com about the new Greendot giving over pressure results from published recipes. Perhaps that's what Bob's referring to. Think of all the tens of thousands of reloaders out there who don't follow this stuff like the folks on here do. They bought a reloader and set it up for a now outmoded recipe years ago out of the Lyman fifth. They use whatever primer is available, don't even own a scale and have loading away for years.They may or not be beating their guns to death but you sure don't hear about them turning into grenades. I can personally attest to a over pressure factory load (Hyper Sonics) destroying a Remington CTI. It split the Forearm, jammed the bolt back into the receiver, and I don't remember what else. It did give me a bloody nose. Point being the barrel didn't rupture. Remington had me send the gun and ammunition back to them and a week later I had a brand new gun and a ammo voucher.

Yep , back in the days of using Flour , corn starch along with rock polishing compound as Buffer our old
870's would take a beating with loads that , eventually , would open the action by itself ! Killed hundreds
of ducks and geese with this load of Lubaloys or Nickel shot at distances beyond belief !
I still have this gun today , it's a nice easy shooting upland load shooting gun but , I do show the effects
as my clay target guns , have release triggers to prove it ! Plus a nervous twitch in my hands as I mumble
profanities when my gun goes off unintentionally !

 

[jerrys]

I think so. When I got to Germany, I had to have my US acquired guns proof tested. I took them to the CIP Proof House in Suhl and dropped them off while I shot at the local range. I perused the multitude of burst barrels on the wall from the proof testing process and there were several shotgun barrels on display. CIP tests shotgun barrels with a 25% overload.

 

[DougMO]

Knowing that some here aren’t Tom Roster fans won’t stop me from posting the best article I have seen where Remington had Tom scientifically ratchet up pressure to blow up a 3” 12 gauge 870. Enjoy.

https://www.***********.com/shotguns/tom-roster/important-information-about-shotshell-pressures.html