Wow, I just looked and every hull with Longshot, 1.125 or 1.25oz lead, is 1330fps and faster! Hundreds of loads! So odd, pressures are 9-10k, why didnt they publish normal lead speeds of 1100-1250fps? Those high speeds are a ton of recoil, bad patterns, and were pretty much beyond max lead speed for pretty much ever. Now it is all they have with longshot.
At lower pressures maybe longshot didn't work well?

I would switch powder. Hs6 is available and has 1220 fps 1.25oz loads listed.

 

Look up Herco with 1 1/4 lead and AA114 yellow wad. Should be around 1200 to 1220. Mild load. Don't know the pressure.

 

1100 to 1200 fps at 1 1/8oz is the standard range for Trap loads. If you want to stick with your Cheddite hulls, they are straight-type so you need a medium to low density powder. Look at loads for Winchester Super Target (WST) and Ramshot Competition. If you are willing to switch to tapered hulls like Remington GC/STS, you can use one of the currently available high density powders like Perfect Pattern and High Gun. Winchester Super Handicap (WSH) will do 1200 but I don't think much slower. The popular low density, flake powders like 700x and Clays have a lot of loads for Cheddite and other straight hulls but aren't available these days. Alliant makes Red Dot which is a nice, low density flake powder and while i think it is sporadically available, it tends to get snapped up quickly. Look on the Alliant site for load data.

The high density powders in straight hulls run into stack height issues. About all you can do is move up a wad size, like use a 1oz wad with 1 1/8oz shot. Still, its better to run the HD powders in tapered hulls (Rem or Win AA)

 

Long shot becomes erratic when you start dropping the pressure below what Hodgdon list. Pick a different powder. Realy to lessen the stress on your stock you should reduce the shot charge. But you do what you want.

 

Longshot is specifically listed by Hodgdons as an option for low pressure short 10 gauge hulls. Hodgdons isn't concerned about low speed 12 gauge because it was specifically marketed towards high speed loadings. That doesn't mean it's unusable for lower velocities.

 

This article by Ross Seyfried may give you some guidance on using Longshot powder in lower pressure 1.25 ounce loads:

Blackpowder Shotshell Loading Tips - Shooting Times

If you like light recoil, deadly performance, and classic guns, Goex Olde Eynsford black powder is just the ticket for your shotshell loads.

www.shootingtimes.com

12 Ga. Data

https://content.osgnetworks.tv/shootingtimes/content/photos/Blackpowder-for-Shotshells-5.jpg

I would also note: Cheddite paper hulls share the same hard plastic basewad with plastic tubed hulls of the same genus. Simply put, this means there should be little pressure difference with these loads be assembled in Cheddite plastic hulls.

The 16 gauge chart shows several such plastic tube vs paper tube comparisons.

https://content.osgnetworks.tv/shootingtimes/content/photos/Blackpowder-for-Shotshells-4.jpg

 

i'd look at a different powder,,,, and less shot.

 

Thanks to all who responded. All things considered, I think I will just use 1 1/8 ounce shot, Rem hull, Cheddite primer, Titewad, and WAA12 wad, from a recipe on Hogdon site. I am going to split the difference between 15.0 gr Titewad / 1090 fps and 15.8 gr Titewad / 1145 fps, so I will use 15.4 gr Titewad and expect around 1115 fps. Should be easy on my Elsie and I will shoot a few patterns to see how far I can use the full choke barrel with #6 Lawrence magnum shot. I predict about 30 yards, maybe 35. If the pattern is too skimpy at those ranges I may try one of the linked recipes for Longshot with 1 1/4 ounce shot.
Thanks again for all the helpful responses.

 

I will shoot a few patterns to see how far I can use the full choke barrel with #6 Lawrence magnum shot. I predict about 30 yards, maybe 35.

You may find with the lower velocity, those loads may pattern well.

There are published loads for 1 1/4oz (I think) with Longshot in a Remington case that are in the 1200's fps, Maybe in Lyman's 5th. I 'll check tonight.

 

Herco or HS6 is your powder for 1220-1250 fps loads with AAHS,F114

 

Powder Valley has both in stock for $42-$45 per lb. Plus haz mat, etc.

 

Or just buy these factory loads:

 

That actually looks a lot better than the copper “washed” shot in the AA diamond grade.

 

That’s a load I saw a lot at pigeon races. But the guys who shot with the 1330 fps usually won. I have no interest in beating myself up any more.

 

Was 7.5 the largest shot size allowed in pigeon shoots?

 

Don Zutz's old reloading book had a chapter on low velocity higher weight loads.

 

Wow I.wasn’t aware of that Super Pigeon load. Meets all of my criteria for turkey except only offered in #7.5. I don’t want to go smaller than #6 as I understand #7.5 has sufficient energy only to about 25 yards (#6 about 35).

 

Take a look at this one Buy Game Load Upland Heavy Field, 12 Gauge, 6 Shot, 2-3/4 in, 1 1/4 oz, 1220 fps 12 Gauge Ammo 6 | H125 6
It ain't the fanciest super duper fantastico load, but it would likely be worth patterning in your Elsie..........

 

Also, Have a read of these.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/subsonic-load-data.551100/post-4750918

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/subsonic-velocity-load-test-results.30478/post-206527

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/subsonic-rounds.148893/post-1210351

 

The OP is really asking for reduced peak chamber pressure due to the age and metallurgy of his shotgun. For the case where everything sans charge weight is held constant, velocity reduction comes merely as a symptomatic consequence of charge weight reduction. Try 26 grains of Longshot in the posted load calling for 29.8 grains. And have the reduced load tested to see if it reduces averaged peak chamber pressure to about 6,000 PSI, and to assure that it still offers adequate ballistic uniformity.

 

It would make no logical sense for the OP to switch to a faster burning powder that will offer a lower the muzzle velocity while at the same time elevating the peak chamber pressure measurement.

If (as @AHI has stated) Longshot can become erratic as powder charge weight is reduced, then selecting a powder in the same or slower relative burn rate class which is potentially less prone to becoming erratic at reduced charge weights is the way to proceed.

 

It would make no logical sense for the OP to switch to a faster burning powder that will offer a lower the muzzle velocity while at the same time elevating the peak chamber pressure measurement.

LC Smith guns were built with robust barrel wall thickness and a strong lock-up, so they withstand the peak chamber pressure of modern ammunition. The stock is the weak link, partly because they are sidelocks and partly because most were oiled liberally and stored muzzle up, allowing oil to trickle into the wood of the head of the stock, which caused deterioration of the wood over time. Slow burning powders like Longshot produce higher velocity but modest peak pressure, and it is velocity that raises recoil and therefore stress on the stock. The gunsmith treated the stock head with acetone to remove the oil, then glass bedded it (using some type of fiberglass product). This strengthens the stock head and reduces the tendency of cracks forming and extending into the stock wrist, but it still is more vulnerable to damage by heavy recoil than a stock of recent manufacture, or a boxlock's stock even if older.

 

The OP is really asking for reduced peak chamber pressure due to the age and metallurgy of his shotgun.

No, oddly enough in this case he isn't. I'd expect him to, but he states otherwise:

It has been examined by a gunsmith and the stock head glass bedded to take care of what was, for an Elsie of this age and use, fairly limited deterioration of the stock head. The gunsmith advised that the barrel steel is substantial and will tolerate shells loaded to SAAMI specifications, but that velocity should be kept down to protect the stock.

So, normal pressures, reduced kick/shock to the stock due to stock issues. I would abandon 1.25 oz right off the bat, myself, if looking to protect from stock shock.

 

No, oddly enough in this case he isn't. I'd expect him to, but he states otherwise:



So, normal pressures, reduced kick/shock to the stock due to stock issues. I would abandon 1.25 oz right off the bat, myself, if looking to protect from stock shock.

@Dave in AZ , I thank you for that welcomed correction to my off base reasoning.

 

Low velocity 1.25 oz...1000-1100fps. Standard velocity 1.25 oz...1220 fps. High velocity 1.25 oz ...1330 fps. ???. Are we drifting?.

 

Back when I tried reducing the velocity of a 1 1/4 ounce load in a straight walled hull. To get a consistent load I ended up using Unique. Consistent is the key. I tried the load OP referred to wrong ( for a tapered hull) wad and all. At 25 gr the velocity was at 1209 to 1215 fps for 3 of the 5 shells the other two were bloopers.

 

I have an LC Smith 12 gauge made in 1907, which I inherited from my grandfather. He, and I before I learned better, routinely used heavy hunting loads (1.25 oz lead, 1330 fps) with it. It has been examined by a gunsmith and the stock head glass bedded to take care of what was, for an Elsie of this age and use, fairly limited deterioration of the stock head. The gunsmith advised that the barrel steel is substantial and will tolerate shells loaded to SAAMI specifications, but that velocity should be kept down to protect the stock.
I would like to use it for turkey hunting this spring and want to reload for this purpose. Hogdon's website gives the following as the mildest 1.25 ounce load:

Cheddite hull and primer, WAA12F114, Longshot 29.8 gr, 8,000 psi, 1330 fps

I am interested in reducing the powder to get the velocity down to 1100-1200 range, preferably closer to 1100. I do want to use 1.25 ounces of shot. I have or can easily obtain all of the components. I do not have a chronometer. Does anyone have a load meeting my specifications? Results of pressure or at least velocity testing would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

You are very smart to go with lower velocity / lower pressure. It will help protect your classic shotgun, it might pattern better then with high velocity loads and the turkey will not know the difference. Dead is dead.

 

Tom Roster on turkey loads

I think pattern density receives too much emphasis and penetration adequacy too little. This is probably because the only equipment necessary for assessment of pattern is a piece of paper and a pen, while assessment of penetration requires a lot more resources (actual animal tissue or, at a minimum, gel or some other inanimate substance; then you have to either xray or dissect the specimen). Plus, pattern is easily represented with a photograph, unlike penetration. Just reporting that a game animal or animals were killed with a given shot size without giving range, as well as percentage of kills vs wounding loss at a particular range, is anecdotal and often misleading.
I think the linked study by Roster is well done and enlightening. I recommend reading the study in its entirety, as the devil is always in the details. However, one conclusion he draws from his data is that penetration of #6 lead is adequate at 35 yards and inadequate at 45. He didn't test #7.5 lead, but its range for adequate penetration is certainly going to be less than that of #6. Pattern density without adequate penetration is not enough.

 

i think you can get 3/4's of an inch of penetration pretty easily at 30yds.

 

Thanks Woodduck1, StinkeyPete suggested the same thing in post #16, and I got a box of #6’s, haven’t patterned yet but this is almost exactly what I am looking for (50-100 fps slower would be perfect but not bad for store bought).

 

As far as I know that will be the lowest velocity you're going to find in a commercial loading of 1 1/4 oz. Several companies used to produce these but Federal is the only one I can easily find these days. You might also want to look at some of RST's shells made just for old double guns. The load is 1 1/16 oz. at 1150 fps in a 2 1/2" shell. 12 Gauge - ***OUT OF STOCK*** 12 Ga. • 2 1/2" • Lite Roll Crimped • Vel. 1150 • 1 1/16 oz. Load - Box #BG.12.21/2.LT.11/16.Box I've had good performance from the RST shells I've used. The one I referenced in the link is out of stock right now.....but you can sign up to be notified when they're available.

 

Here are a few of my pattern numbers from the federal load. I think it is a good load!

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot inscribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

12 GA 2 3/4" FEDERAL GAME-SHOK HEAVY FIELD LOAD
1 ¼ oz #5 lead (224 pellets) @ 1220 fps
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 173 (77%)
40 YARDS – Mod / pattern 145 (65%)
50 YARDS – Full / pattern 109 (49%)

And here are some of my pattern numbers from my similar reload.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot inscribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

12 GA 2 3/4" RELOAD (WAACF, W209, UNIQUE, CB1114-12)
1 1/4 oz #5 lead (210 pellets) @ 1220 fps
30 YARDS – CYL / pattern 125 (60%)
30 YARDS – SK / pattern 145 (69%)
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 177 (84%)
40 YARDS – LM / pattern 155 (74%)
40 YARDS – M / pattern 155 (74%)
40 YARDS – IM / pattern 174 (83%)
50 YARDS – IM / pattern 125 (60%)
50 YARDS – LF / pattern 120 (57%)
50 YARDS – F / pattern 129 (61%)

 

When we messed around with subsonics, we patterned some. I loaded #4 and got xfull-full pattern out of every choke. Pattern 1/2 the size but very uniform.
This was confirmed by a buddy who was also testing with his friend who relayed data back and forth. He had 88%+ pattern. We were after groundgame. So needed to thump them pretty good.

Ive loaded those tw subsonics, they were my first.
Those 2.5" hullz still have the same pressure specs as 2 .75. But different recipes. They are not interchangable. -(just sating)

Guys here loaded faster tar get powder for 1,1/4oz subs.
Sometimes used for loading those old girls, keep them running without pounding them. Old people and kids friendly. Sadly due to tight patterns not really for inexperienced shots or those used to 1500fps loads.

1500fps seems to be coveted. And the legendary #6 uk (#7s or so US) can take down any game on the face of the planet (thats how its portrayed here). I tended to use slow #4. i have more faith in that shotsize than faith in patterns holding together from 1500fps.

I patterned enough, after one session. A guy ran over and gave me 20questions. Wanted to know "how on earth did make those patterns? "
What choke, what magic i used.

 

I have an LC Smith 12 gauge made in 1907, which I inherited from my grandfather. He, and I before I learned better, routinely used heavy hunting loads (1.25 oz lead, 1330 fps) with it. It has been examined by a gunsmith and the stock head glass bedded to take care of what was, for an Elsie of this age and use, fairly limited deterioration of the stock head. The gunsmith advised that the barrel steel is substantial and will tolerate shells loaded to SAAMI specifications, but that velocity should be kept down to protect the stock.
I would like to use it for turkey hunting this spring and want to reload for this purpose. Hogdon's website gives the following as the mildest 1.25 ounce load:

Cheddite hull and primer, WAA12F114, Longshot 29.8 gr, 8,000 psi, 1330 fps

I am interested in reducing the powder to get the velocity down to 1100-1200 range, preferably closer to 1100. I do want to use 1.25 ounces of shot. I have or can easily obtain all of the components. I do not have a chronometer. Does anyone have a load meeting my specifications? Results of pressure or at least velocity testing would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

If you want to reduce velocity by reducing the powder charge, switch to a tapered hull and a FED209A. That way you're not starting out at an anemic 8,000 psi before dropping short on the powder.