Check these out:

 

No more turkey shells than you will shoot I would recommend just purchasing some 2 3/4 inch Federal Heavyweight #7 and be done with it (assuming the 37 is steel shot compatible).

 

Thanks for those videos, but the old Ithaca is a late 60's to early 70's model and is a straight mod. choke, so it isn't compatible with any hard shot like steel or the tungsten mixes. I'm stuck with lead, but that's not too bad. I know a lot of turkey hunters who use a 20 ga. by preference. One uses a Win. 101 ltwt. "bird gun" but he shoots Hevi-Shot in it. Most, though, just use std. lead shot, and just call them in close. Adds to the hunt, really. Some have used std. 7 1/2 shot, but I think I'll likely stick with 6's. They ought to have enough oomph at the ranges I'd feel comfortable in shooting at one, and the smaller pellets up the pellet count, and even with their smaller size, they still seem to kill well at say 35 yds. or so. Velocity becomes more important with smaller shot, too, of course, so it's really a balancing act.

I do know from a fair amount of paper pattern testing that the choke stamped on the barrel is an "average" with "average" loads, and there's no way to know what % patterns you're really shooting unless you prove it on paper. A buddy once wanted to pattern his 12 ga. 3" 101, another light "bird gun" variant, with 3" 2 oz. #5's. He shot the first target and got 75%. The gun didn't have a recoil pad, and he was VERY reluctant to fire another. Ii kept after him to try the mod. barrel, based on other patterns I'd seen shot, and he finally shoved the gun at me and said, "Well HERE, then! YOU shoot it." Faced with that kind of challenge, what could I do but ... shoot it? I did, and found out just exactly WHY he was so reluctant to shoot it a 2nd. time! It did 96% though, on the target. I also had an old Super-X 1 in mod. that shot 86% with baby magnum 5's. In fact, it hasn't really been UNcommon to find mod. chokes out-shooting fulls with larger shot. I haven't done nearly as much shooting with a 20 ga., though, and was hoping for a little deeper insight into that bore size.

I've known all along that the pattern board is the place to prove out ANY load in any given shotgun. Surprises are always in store when we do that with a wide range of loads and shot sizes. and each gun is a law unto itself, or at least that's what I've concluded from my own experience. I think all shotguns are female. They seem to have a mind all their own, and we just can't quite really understand them like we'd like to.

I don't really HAVE to kill a turkey to enjoy the hunt, and I want my grandson to learn how to do that, too. Using a 2 3/4" 20 could be a help in that. And an extra "claim to fame" if and when he can pull it off. Knowing what load and how far it'll shoot and be effective is the key, and I'd MUCH rather go out with a proven 20 ga. I KNOW, than a 3.5" 12 ga. I'd never patterned. Larger size shot seem to take less choke to shoot tightly than small shot, or at least that's how it's worked out fairly frequently, but it's STILL got to be proven on paper before I feel I can trust it.

Just thought some might have trod the ground in front of me now, and might have a scouting report I could shorten my path with, but thanks anyhow.

 

Ballistics Product's Advantage Manual 7th Edition list the following load. Use at your own risk. I have not tried it.

Load ID#: 31017-189
Gauge: 20
Hull: Cheddite 2 3/4"
Primer: CCI209M
Powder: Blue Dot
Grns. : 21
Plastic Wad: CSD20 (slit) (you can control the depth of the slit to help control your pattern)
Over Shot: OS20
Shot: Lead #6 (I would recommend their nickel plated lead shot)
Shot Wgt.: 1 1/8 oz.
Load Grns.:492
PSI: 10700
FPS: 1125

Again, use at your own risk.

 

Why not just buy a box of these and be done with it?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/ ... ?a=1589565

 

Your post said "extend the range." Packing more and more shot into a hull is not going to accomplish this. As the weight of shot goes up in a given gauge that can take a given pressure, the velocity that can be achieved will go down. Decreasing velocity is not going to increase range. There is no secret recipe that will get around this. The MAWP of the 20 is 12,000 PSI. The cross-sectional area of the barrel is a fixed number (you can't change it.) You apply a certain pressure to a certain area you get a certain force. This force acting against more weight produces less acceleration. Against less weight you get more acceleration. Take a look at Alliant, or Hodgdon or Lymans. The only 20 gauge loads you see that are up around 1300 FPS are for 7/8 ounce. The vast majority of the 1 ounce loads listed are 1200 and under. With the right wad it is possible to get 1 1/8 in a 2 3/4 inch 20 and get 1 1/4 ounce into a 3 inch. But this does not change the MAWP of the gun or the diameter of the barrel. The velocity of these loads is lower.

I think you will need to stick with a shot weight that allows a decent velocity and then concentrate on achieving a good pattern at the desired range. This is really going to take a lot of patterning. You just don't know how that particular gun and choke is going to respond to different wads till you try.

 

I would try one of the following recipes loaded with 1 ounce of nickle plated #6 shot:

Remington hull
Win 209 primer
SP20 wad
17.8 grains of Longshot
1220 fps

Federal Hull
Win 209 primer
Fed 20S1 wad
20.9 grains of Longshot
1275 fps

The Federal load has less pressure and higher velocity. The Remington load is at max pressure. But either of those would be about as good as it gets for 2 3/4" lead reloads for turkey.

 

You can go to Winchester's site and look at 20 gauge and call up a list of what they feel are turkey loads. All of the 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 ounce loads are listed at 1200 FPS or below. They do have 2- one ounce loads that are listed at 1300 (or close to it.) If you really want to hunt turkeys with a M37 in 20 gauge with a modified choke it might be wise to get a box of these and pattern them. I would be real hard pressed to figure out how you could need more than 5-10 shells in a turkey season. That might be why they are often sold in boxes of 5 or 10. If you really want to proceed with from scratch development you will be buying powder (or powders) in one pound quantities. You will buy several wads in quantities of 250 each and a bare minimum of 100 primers, maybe 100 each of a couple brands. The you will have to start loading and patterning. All of this to produce 5-10 shells a year. Chances are real good that when you get done with all of this you will end up with something that works just about as good as the off the shelf WW loads.

I really enjoy reloading and do a lot if it. I am not trying to discourage anyone. One advantage of reloading is developing specialty loads. But turkey hunting is pretty popular and the ammo companies have spent a lot of money developing loads for it. Your chances of coming up with something better are probably not real good.

 

Cerberus, you always give good, sound advice, and your experience is appreciated, too, but one of the big problems I've had is FINDING some good loads commercially. If you're not there when they come in, you miss out here. That might be different next year, but in the meantime, I just want to be SURE I have a good, repeatable load for next year, and for whenever it might be suitable for anything else.

Also, as a newbie to this, I figure it'd be a pretty fair way to learn some of the finer points of the pursuit. The factories DO indeed have some significant advantages, of course, but we reloaders at least have the advantage of flexibility and (sometimes) an experimental bent. With availability of components now, especially powders, it just seems wise to play around and try to learn something while simultaneously pursuing something useful and reproducable. With the way the factories keep changing their loads, it seems every year I'd have to go pattern those spendy shells again anyway, but if I find a good, or at least acceptable and workable load, I'll have it 'till the cows come home provided I've got a stock of powder, primers and wads, and can reproduce it at will when and if needed. More of a logistics thing, really, plus a learning experience for me. Thanks. Your advice is always listened to and appreciated.

 

Cerberus, you always give good, sound advice, and your experience is appreciated, too, ...

Virgil, I appreciate the kind words but I'm not sure where I helped on this thread. Did you mean to credit albatros for his post above?

 

As a matter of fact, Cerberus is the guy you probably need to talk to on this. I have provided advice based on my experience but it is primarily large quantities of target loads. At least based on other posts, Cerb has lots more experience in specialized custom loads. If you want to proceed with developing loads, think in terms of plated shot with buffer, and whatever guys like Cerb might recommend.

 

Thank you.

 

Thank you.

 

Virgil, I recall from your first thread on this topic that you had Longshot and Alliant Steel on hand. Is that still the case or do you have any other slow 20 gauge powders available?

There are a few ways to get to the load(s) you might want to try. Let's just assume for now that we are limited to Longshot and Steel and you will use only 2.75" hulls, and work from there.

You mentioned the CSD20 wad and its a great choice for several reasons. One is that, as already mentioned, you can cut your own slits to tune the pattern.

Another is that the thicker plastic shotcup walls will have the effect of adding choke and you may find it makes your MOD shoot more like a FULL.

Finally, it will easily handle a 1oz lead payload as well as 3/4oz of small steel shot. The shotcup walls are thick enough to protect your older barrel when using smaller steel shot (#4-#8) and give you the well known benefit of steel shot patterning tighter than lead.

As a baseline, here are the pellet counts for various lead and steel shot payloads:

Steel 3/4 oz: #5/177 - #6/234 - #7/317
Lead 1oz: #5/170 - #6/226 - #7/300 - #7.5/350
Lead 1-1/8oz: #5/192 - #6/254 - #7/337 - #7.5/394

Note that the 3/4oz steel counts are slightly better than the 1oz lead, and as you will see below, at much higher speeds.

Most of the 2.75" loads will top out at 1oz of lead shot. The only heavyweight 2.75" 20 gauge lead load I have is this one:

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Fiocchi
Primer: Fio-616
Powder: Steel 20.0grs
Wad: VP94 (PT2094) + OS20
Shot Wt: 1 1/8 Lead #6 + BPI Original Buffer
PSI: 10800
FPS: 1200

In 1oz you have more choices and higher speeds:

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Fiocchi
Primer: Fio-616
Powder: Longshot 20.0 / 21.0
Wad: PT2094 + OS20
Shot Wt: 1 Lead #6
PSI: 10700 / 11600
FPS: 1275 / 1340

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Multi-Hull (Cheddite)
Primer: CH209
Powder: Longshot 22.0
Wad: Trap Commander TC20
Shot Wt: 1 Lead
PSI: 8100
FPS: 1330

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Fiocchi
Primer: Fio-616
Powder: Steel 23.0
Wad: CSD20
Shot Wt: 1 Lead
PSI: 11200
FPS: 1340

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Cheddite
Primer: CH209
Powder: Steel 23.0
Wad: CSD20
Shot Wt: 1 Lead
PSI: 11400
FPS: 1340

Now to add a twist, consider steel shot:

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Fiocchi
Primer: Fio-616
Powder: Steel 24.5
Wad: CSD20
Shot Wt: 3/4 steel (#5, #6 or #7)
PSI: 9600
FPS: 1500

Hull: 20 - 2.75" Federal Field (Top Gun)
Primer: Fed-209A
Powder: Steel 22.0
Wad: CSD20
Shot Wt: 3/4 steel (#5, #6 or #7) + BPI Original Buffer
PSI: 11700
FPS: 1450

If you would consider using steel shot in the Ithaca, it would be hard to beat 175-235 steel #5 or #6 in a tight pattern at those high speeds, with plenty of energy to break a turkey neck and skull.

If you want lead shot only, the 1oz CSD20 loads at 1340 or the 1-1/8 with the PT2094 would be good choices. You need to decide if you want more pellets in the heavier load vs. faster pellets in a tough wad that you can custom cut to give the better patterns.

All of these tougher steel shot wads like the CSD20 naturally pattern tighter than the standard lead shot wads, but if you haven't used them yet, the PT lead wads have thick petal walls, just made of a softer plastic. They are really nice, and priced right too.

Be aware that 1-1/8oz of lead in the PT2094 will leave about 1/3 of the shot unprotected by the shotcup.

Taken all together you may be better off trying the CSD20 first. They are more expensive but you wont be shooting that many, and they will probably give you the best results with either lead or steel shot with a minimum of fuss, and with powder you already have.

 

SEE, that's exactly why I said Cerb's your guy.

 

Thanks to both of you, and FWIW, I got it mixed up because you're two of the top people here that I've come to trust implicitly, and being rather hard to impress when it comes to any handloading, that's meant as a compliment. Will try to keep the CRS disease in check better.

And thanks for those loads. I've been thinking along the outlines you've posted, but until I get 'em done, it's all just guessing, and that's no way to approach loading or shooting game. I plan to get some 3/8" hardwood dowels and wrap with wet newsprint to test any loads given final consideration. This should give me at least an approximation of what I can expect on game, at least. I've been autopsying game for many years, and have found things just aren't always quite what folks tend to think and opine online. The final test is always on the game, though, but at least simulations can at least prevent the error being too large.

I STILL haven't gotten to load much yet. Closed in the garage and am making and putting up shelving now. Seems something's always interfering with my plans, but c'est la' vie? Your imput is valued, and at least it shows one CAN get something out of simply reading the manuals, at least for a start. I learned long ago, though, that experience beats theory every time, and you guys' input is really appreciated. Thanks.

 

And BTW, since I'm a newbie and still learning, it's seemed to me that the Lyman manual tends to give mostly factory reproduction loads, which is valuable of course, but BPI's manual tends to look more (comparatively at least) toward a broader potential for the respective guages and hulls. Would you guys and others kinda' agree with this? They certainly have more loads, and a careful study of them does give rise to more questions, and therefore to more learning. It's been very valuable, but I wouldn't want to be without either. For most of the little Ithaca's use, it'll probably be using factrory repro loads with 7/8 oz. of shot with lighter 1 oz. loads and slightly larger shot for late season when doves, etc. have thicker, heavier coats that prove to be harder to penetrate. But that experimental and curios bent within me always wants to find, if possible, the "optimum" load for specific purposes, and the little Ithaca is definitely worth the effort, not to mention the grandson. I learned long ago that a mod. barrel MAY give i.c. or full patterns with varying loads, and that's a really good thing. I'd have it bored for chokes if it wasn't so pristine and thus "valuable" as a collector possibly one day hence. With the right loads, that little gun really might not need them anyway, and besides, it's just plain fun to play with loads, and try to learn something that might actually be useful. But that's just me, of course. Most folks just don't have time to devote to such pursuits, but now that I'm retired, I do. So ... it's really a no-brainer to utilize a long sought situation for the purpose, and see what I can come up with. I once blew up a Super Blackhawk - long story, so don't ask - but it taught me DEFINITIVELY about caution and it's a lesson I couldn't forget even if I wanted to. Very sobering experience! Anyway, that's a major part of the reason I'm asking these questions, and I thank all who've helped me in this. It IS most definitely appreciated.

 

Thanks to both of you, and FWIW, I got it mixed up because you're two of the top people here that I've come to trust implicitly, and being rather hard to impress when it comes to any handloading, that's meant as a compliment. Will try to keep the CRS disease in check better.

Thank you.

And thanks for those loads. I've been thinking along the outlines you've posted, but until I get 'em done, it's all just guessing, and that's no way to approach loading or shooting game. I plan to get some 3/8" hardwood dowels and wrap with wet newsprint to test any loads given final consideration. This should give me at least an approximation of what I can expect on game, at least. I've been autopsying game for many years, and have found things just aren't always quite what folks tend to think and opine online. The final test is always on the game, though, but at least simulations can at least prevent the error being too large.

How about just having turkey for your next Sunday dinner or family get togethers? Save the necks, tape them to a box or board and let the shot tell the story.

I agree with your opinions of the Lyman manuals and Ballistic Products. Lyman's were the first manuals I ever read and are fine for getting started and understanding the basics. They contain enough specialty loads to be the equivalent of first or second grade coloring books. The drawings are more complicated than the kindergarten books but the emphasis is still on coloring inside the lines and making sure everyone in class ends up with the same picture.

Ballistic Products just starts with a blank page and says, "Let's try this..."
I like that approach but I think that bothers some people who don't like to stray too far from the basic loads. That's too bad for them because when you look at it fairly BPI is the only company that makes any effort to publish new loads and data on a regular basis. They are the only one stop shop for the truly specialty loads and the components to build them, and that's why I'm a fan.

 

Virgil -- You might look at trying on one of Alliant's 1 oz 20ga loads using Blue Dot and magnum #6 lead shot. I've used one on a few pheasants and it should make a fine close range (<30 yards) youth turkey load.

Here some of my pattern numbers to give you an idea how they might pattern in a mod choke.

Pattern results from a 20-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

20 GA 2 3/4" RELOAD (REM HULL, R209P, BLUE DOT, WAA20F1)
1 OZ #6 LEAD (West Coast MAG) (233 PELLETS) 1,200 FPS

30 YDS -- Modified / 200 (86%)

Good luck.

 

Thanks, guys. I believe I'm at least on the right path. That makes me feel a whole lot better!

 

Thanks, Joe. Just what I was looking for. I've never figured shotgun chokes out, but sure have noted some substantial differences from gun to gun and load to load. It just seems logical that the slower powders and thicker wads should shoot tighter. I can't wait to get my new reloading room together so I can get back to loading again.