I had the "cracked tube" syndrome and Briley suggested leaving the bushing the same but substituting Unique for GD. Worked well and put me onto the "Unique" train of loading that I still use today....

 

Sorry that happened, all of my 20ga guns are fluid steel and not tubed.

 

There is only one 20 ga 7/8 ounce recipe in a Federal hull where I can make a direct comparison. The recipe and data is the same in the 1995 Hercules manual and the current Alliant on-line Data Center.

20ga Fed Target hull, CC209M, Fed 20S1 wad, 14.1 gr Green Dot, 9100 psi 1155 fps.

 

I see four recipes listed, 3 using a Federal hull, Green Dot, FED 209A primer, 7/8 oz. shot the other shows a CCI209M primer.

 

Yes I was able to make a direct comparison on the one using the CCI 209M. The loads published in the 1995 Hercules manual were using the Fed 209 rather than the Fed 209A primer and the 1995 uses data for both. The 209A is a hotter primer and no comparison can be made with recipes using the out of production Fed 209.

 

Currently using data from Lyman 5th edition Oct 2022 printing. AA 20 ga hull, GD 14.5 (verified weight), 7/8 #9, Win 209, WAA20, 1175fps, 11,800 psi as listed. SKB, and 1100. Good load, no issues.

 

FWIW the closest I can get to 14 grain of GD is with a MEC 23 bushing, 13.8 gr and my MEC 7/8 bar drops 368 grains of magnum lead 8 (7/8 oz = 383 gr).

 

Crowshooter:

Kudos for the thorough research and analysis. I'm not sure what your concern is other than a suspicion there's been some change in the formulation of GD that changed its performance, something your analysis shows didn't happen (or at least if it did, Alliant never updated their data). The load you mentioned only produces 10300 psi. Since you are not shooting a tubed gun, i can't see any problem with using that load.

 

Thank you. I have a Remington Sportsman 20ga equipped with a Cutts, it's a neat old gun but it needs recoil to function properly, 3/4 oz don't work reliably. During the pandemic I bought what I could find for powder but my largest quantities were Red Dot and Green Dot. I remembered using Green Dot for 20ga 7/8 in the 80's and 90's. I did some reading here, learned about the problem with tubes and read about a reformulation of Alliant powders for cleaner burn. That got me curious and I started comparing where I could loads listed in the old Hercules manual against the current on-line manual and regardless of which powder I looked at but mainly GD the data was identical with identical components. So it made me wonder if the GD and RD 20 ga loads were pulled for another reason such as to sell more powder.

 

I’m loading 20 gauge AA with CB wad CH209 7/8oz #8 (drops light with #8) and 14.5gr verified GD. The loader hasn’t been changed since 1996. Fill the powder fill the shot fill the primer tray.

 

xxx

 

The data in the Lyman #5 . Has not been updated or corrected. From the original printing. Example theres data using WSF in 28 gauge. Winchester has stated to not use that data. They actually have never recommend WSF for 28 gauge. High Pressure spike issues. Alliant also pulled there Green Dot Data. Same reason High pressure spike issues. Discovered when retesting . When going from LUP/CUP to PSI testing.

 

Do you have a reference for that? The 1987 and 1995 Hercules manuals state a PSI with all the Green Dot 20 ga loads, not LUP or CUP. In addition all the 12ga loads and the one 20ga load in using the Federal hull in the old manuals available on line have the exact same pressure when using the same stated components, no variations in pressure not even by 100 psi.

 

The SAAMI Standards change from LUP to PSI did not begin until 1992 and there were concerns and debates about what the actual MAP's were to be set at. Hercules might have been using piezo equipment back in 1987...... the data probably was shot in 1986/1987 for the 1987 manual and chances are it was never shot again. Just like their Steel powder data, it was shot a bunch of years ago, but it is pretty well established that their data really doesn't represent the current lots of Steel powder. Would it damage shotguns, probably not. Can you tell by shooting it? No.

Alliant hasn't removed the Green Dot data from their website for most 20 ga. and 16 ga. applications for no reason.

Cracking 20 ga. Briley tubes is a valid reason for the removal of some 20 ga. Green Dot data, but 16 ga.? They don't make full length 16 ga. tubes with extractors/ejectors, for use in 12 ga. carrier or standard barrels.

 

I have the 2000 Alliant Reloading Manual as well. It has a full color 8 page centerfold pull out announcing "A cleaner -burning all-time favorite" and announcing the arrival of Steel Powder. The cleaner burning all-time favorite is Red Dot. No mention of Greed Dot being reformulated in the detailed description of each powder in that brochure. Yet, the 20 ga GD loads in AA hulls is missing. In my mind it's more evidence data was omitted that showed a powder's versatility which could have been done for marketing, shoot a 12 and 20, you need two powders and sales increase.

P.S, As far as Steel powder data. When I compared Steel recipes in the 2000 Alliant Manual against the current On-Line Data Center velocities and pressures are identical when identical components were used.

P.P.S. My 1976 Hercules reloading manual states pressure in LUP but my 1987 Hercules Manual states pressure as PSI. The change from using LUP to PSI happened before 1992.

 

Upon further examination of the older Hercules/Alliant manuals through at least 1995, if you look closely at the headings it states "Approx. PSI". In the newer manuals, it does not state "Approx. PSI" it is written as "PSI". That data never changed for many years, it was added to and deleted from but never reshot.......and there was no need to in 1995.

IMR data from the early 1990's was used by Hodgdon for years, up until 2021-22 for some of it.

It costs big $$$$ to shoot data. It is fairly labor intensive.

 

Hi guys. FWIW. I am still shooting green dot powder and using 20 gauge resipies that I used back in the late 70's and early 80's. It is for sure a tube splitting powder because Claude told me if I kept shooting it he would stop replacing my 20 gauge tubes. So, I switched to Unique. But, that did not stop me from shooting Green Dot in my 20 gauge Remington Skeet B. And, even today I am still shooting 14.5 grains in my 3/4 ounce load and 15.2 grains in my 7/8 ounce load.

With this I am keeping on keeping on with what I have been doing all these years.

Do what I am doing at your own risk as many Green Dot recipes are no longer in the Alliant Powder manual but I have found some of the old ones in other recently published manuals.

Wishing All ... Good Shooting.

Old_Skeet

 

This is the first thread I have posted to, and given information in a while. I won't make that mistake again.

 

Sorry that your feelings were hurt. Seems we live in a world where differences of opinion is often intolerable. Reading your signature statement at the bottom of your posts I do find it ironic that I offered facts regarding old and current published data and asked why is it identical and you answered with your beliefs and opinions on why without referencing anything to support them.

 

Green Dot is all I've ever used and if it destroys tubes and Damascus barrels so what?

 

Of course they will say what they are told to say if you call. It doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong that’s up to me to decide. All I know is that I’ve been shooting 14.5 grains of GD with 7/8 ounce in 20 gauge AA hulls for years. This picture is from Lymans 4th copyright 1998. Pressure is in LUP for this load at this time. Many loads are PSI in the 1998 book. I do wonder what I’d get if I sent them for testing. Cheddite primer is my only substitution.

 

Thanks for sharing, it's interesting in '98 Hercules used LUP for those GD loads whereas in the '87 and '95 manuals they used approx PSI. Pictures below from '95 manual.

 

Begs the question if “approximate PSI” was gotten mathematically from existing LUP numbers. Hmmm.

 

If so they are still publishing data in 12ga today using that method as the data is the same now as it was then.

 

I’m surprised nobody has posted here before about having them tested. The hulls don’t show any signs of over pressure. Shot thousands of them.

 

What signs would there be?

 

$40 to test 5 shells
$25 to test each extra string
I’ve got a couple I’d like to test.....

 

$40 to test 5 shells
$25 to test each extra string
I’ve got a couple I’d like to test.....

It would be interesting to see what the GD AA 20's are doing. I do suspect the Cheddite primers would produce greater pressure than the Win 209A's but only testing each would confirm that.

 

As we know powder "LOTS" for A Steel are up in the mid-30's , and do , perform differently !

 

Holy cow. I’m about to load some up and send in just so everyone can unwind their panties.

 

I hope you do and share the results. It seems odd that nobody here had the 20ga 7/8 oz in AA hull GD loads tested. It's been over 20 years since they were published and given the powder shortages we are and have experienced I would have thought some folks would be looking to use what they have for powder via testing. I expected somebody would join in to say I had a GD 20ga load tested and this is what it did.

 

So far as I am aware, the only reason Alliant pulled the GD data for 20 ga. 7/8 oz loads was because Briley asked them to because they were cracking the chambers of their tubes and they were having to honor warranty claims. I also heard Briley asked Hodgdon to delete similar data using International and Hodgdon told them to pound sand. I have never heard anyone say the data we deleted because they were producing pressures in excess of the SAAMI MAP.

The only things we know for sure are (1) Alliant deleted the data and (2) the loads were cracking Briley tube chambers. The rest is all speculation.

 

So far as I am aware, the only reason Alliant pulled the GD data for 20 ga. 7/8 oz loads was because Briley asked them to because they were cracking the chambers of their tubes and they were having to honor warranty claims. I also heard Briley asked Hodgdon to delete similar data using International and Hodgdon told them to pound sand. I have never heard anyone say the data we deleted because they were producing pressures in excess of the SAAMI MAP.

The only things we know for sure are (1) Alliant deleted the data and (2) the loads were cracking Briley tube chambers. The rest is all speculation.

Do you know if Briley has a max pressure for their 20ga tubes? Kolar has published guidance. "We strongly recommend 20 gauge chamber pressure be maintained at less than 10,700 PSI."

 

Federal top gun hull
Win 209
Cb1075-20(3/4oz wad)
7/8oz magnum #8shot
13 gr Green Dot
1085 FPs Avg Velocity
These are my findings with what I've tested.

 

Only one 20 ga 7/8 ounce recipe in a Federal hull allows for a direct comparison.

 

I was the one who started the thread on 16ga.com.
I had 16 gauge loads tested and one 3/4 oz 20 gauge Green Dot load tested. That 3/4 oz. was right on the edge. I would assume going to 7/8 oz and 14+ gns. you would be over by a significant amount.
Alliant pulled the last 16 gauge Green Dot load on its website because I had it tested.

Jim

 

A spread of 500 PSI. Not the thousands of PSI spike mentioned. Only five shells, granted.
This subject reminds me of the attempt to blow up an 870 12 gauge. Tom Roster maybe? 55,000 psi was reached. 12,000 really doesn’t scare me. I’d rather be at 10,500. I have a 35 year old new bottle of GD. As well as new powder. I’m going to send 5 of each to test. I’m also going to finish my 410 TSS experimental load and my 12 gauge duplex steel / TSS load and send them off.

 

Man...."Urinary Olympics" between a couple of posters in this thread aside...(though fun to read btw) I find this post quite interesting in that it confirms once again there are no absolutes. That thesis certainly holds true for shotshell reloading, especially 20 gauge using Green Dot ! Just as NEBS said... All of the references and research and data quoted by the posters indicate there are very close approximation data, but nothing absolute, right?
And all of that data cannot be wrong, nor can all of it be 'exactly right'. Appears that within a tenth or two of a grain for GD, and a couple of pellets either side of 7/8 oz. for each one of the given recipes and you are most likely GTG w/r/t max pressures in a 20 gauge with forged steel barrels.
Are 20 ga tubes cracking? Maybe? Is it because of reloads with GD? Maybe?
Do tubes have lower pressure tolerances than a standard 20-gauge barreled shotgun? Maybe? I'd think the first place to start would be to query the tube manufacture and ask them about maximum pressures. I believe CrowShooter addressed that very issue.

 

Do tubes have lower pressure tolerances than a standard 20-gauge barreled shotgun? Maybe? I'd think the first place to start would be to query the tube manufacture and ask them about maximum pressures. I believe CrowShooter addressed that very issue.

The tubes had a design defect that caused the chambers to crack using ammunition that was within SAAMI MAP specs (allegedly, but imposible for the tube people to refute). At least Kolar owned up to it by changing its design.