Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited

Guide pour l’ identification des marques Belges
page index du livre

Le Banc d'épreuve des armes à feu de Liège
page2

https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf

Liege Gunmakers
Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1

Belgian Maker's Marks
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC ... Xntqw/edit

Date of Proof codes- Lettres Annales used after 1921



Another version of the Greek letters 1948-1961



Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege from "Trade & Hallmarks on Firearms in Belgium" Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst, 1998



1 millimeters = about 0.04 inches
70 mm = 2 3/4" chamber
17.0 = .670"; 16.3 = .642"; choke constriction of .028" or 16g Light Full
18.0 = .709; 18.7 = .736"; choke constriction of .027" or 12g Improved Modified
18.4 was the usual c. 1900 Belgian 12g = .724"

After 1924 the markings were "Choke" and bore only.
If marked only with one number & the word "Choke", then it indicates bore size only and has at least .2 mm (.008") of choke constriction. "Choke" may not be marked despite muzzle constriction of < .008".



Bore may also be found under muzzle constriction

Barrel weight at the time of Smokeless proof: 1 kilogram = 2.2046 pounds; 1.3555 Kg = 3 pounds.
May also be stamped '1K3555' after 1924 without the decimal.
If the barrels now weigh >3% less (from honing), the gun is considered out of proof

 

Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited

Belgian Maker's Marks
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC ... Xntqw/edit

Date of Proof codes- Lettres Annales used after 1921



Another version of the Greek letters 1948-1961



Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege from "Trade & Hallmarks on Firearms in Belgium" Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst, 1998



1 millimeters = about 0.04 inches
70 mm = 2 3/4" chamber
17.0 = .670"; 16.3 = .642"; choke constriction of .028" or 16g Light Full
18.0 = .709; 18.7 = .736"; choke constriction of .027" or 12g Improved Modified
18.4 was the usual c. 1900 Belgian 12g = .724"

After 1924 the markings were "Choke" and bore only.
If marked only with one number & the word "Choke", then it indicates bore size only and has at least .2 mm (.008") of choke constriction. "Choke" may not be marked despite muzzle constriction of < .008".



Barrel weight at the time of Smokeless proof: 1 kilogram = 2.2046 pounds; 1.3555 Kg = 3 pounds.
May also be stamped '1K3555' after 1924 without the decimal.
If the barrels now weigh >3% less (from honing), the gun is considered out of proof

 

Optional Supplementary Proof with "E.C." or "Schultze" Bulk Smokeless powders was offered starting in 1891. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. It was mandatory post-1924.
NOTE: it is not uncommon for pre-WWI shotguns intended for export to the U.S. not to carry Smokeless Powder proof

Lion over SCH or EC were earlier optional smokeless powder proof marks using "Schultze" or "E.C." powders.



Proof using "E.C. No. 3" (a 33 grain = 3 Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokeless and introduced in 1904) is not uncommon



1853-1877 inspector's (controller's) marks were crowned rather than spangled.

PLEASE NOTE: Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time, this list is incomplete, and the significance of some has been lost to a fire at the Proof House

Fused 'AV' controller's mark on a Belgian double made 1910-1921 is not on the list

Load data was used 1897-1903

12g Manufacture Liegeoise likely proved with Mullerite (stylized lion over M) for a service load of 2.70 grams POUDRE = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains) Bulk Smokeless Powder.
"E.C." No. 1 & "Schultze" were also 42 gr. = 3 Dr. Eq.
36 grams PLOMBE = 1 1/4 oz. Shot

 

Hi!

I have inherited a F.Dumoulin & Cie Liege of my grandfather.
It has been a little difficult to identify which year that the shotgun is made ..
And I hope to be able to use this fine weapon to hunt grouse in the future, just like my grandfather did.
Hope you can help me!

Klick on the link to see the markings on the shotgun.

regards Markus

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka

 

Belgian Service & Proof Load Pressures

Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) 1906
https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA ... g=PA52&lpg



12g - about 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps).
(12g 5.8 grams = 89.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dram)
16g - about 1 oz. / 2 1/2 Dram Eq. (1165 fps).
20g - about 7/8 oz. / 2 1/4 Dram Eq. (1155 fps).
Powder was not specified, but appears to be a Black Powder No. 4

After the proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d'epreuve could be issued and specified:
"The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device , lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, 12, 10, 8 & 4; 670 pounds per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller."
600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure;
670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure
+ 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement.
20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi
12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi
Transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi

20g Certificat d'epreuve proved at 1000 kg/cm2



The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards were not ratified until 1969.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en ... _type_id=7
Pressures are measured by transducers
12g 65mm and 70mm "standard proof" lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300) SERVICE pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; PROOF 930 BAR = 13,489 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi; PROOF 980 BAR or 14,214 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi; PROOF 1040 BAR or 15,084 psi.

 

Lettre Annale / Date of Control marks can be difficult to decipher
Lower case cursive 'p' = 1937
Spangled B = controller's mark
Stylized lion over PV = Smokeless Proof
Crowned ELG = post-1893
16-70 in an Omega lying = post 1924 gauge and chamber length in mm.



Les lettres de l'alphabet lower case cursive script

 

Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 5&t=471622

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto ... 5&t=474548

 

Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. It's complete. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Thank y'all again!

 

outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours.

 

I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Any help would be appreciated.

 

First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns"
https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53



It is not uncommon to see 2 bore marks. .1 mm = .004" difference was allowed for the Second Obligatory Proof, and the barrels were remarked.

 

Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made

 

My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. I recently decided to clean it up. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Quite old.







Maybe someone could determine year of production (I cannot determine is it letter d, j or delta in red encircled), manufacurer...

Some help:
S with asterix - inspector proof mark (C. Daenen) - 1952-68.
Jean Falla bore maker - 1931-53.
Greek letters are used - 1948-61.

 

My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. I recently decided to clean it up. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Quite old.







Maybe someone could determine year of production (I cannot determine is it letter d, j or delta in red encircled), manufacurer...

Some help:
S with asterix - inspector proof mark (C. Daenen) - 1952-68.
Jean Falla bore maker - 1931-53.
Greek letters are used - 1948-61.

TINKER: Your chambers are shorter than 2 3/4" standard in the USA - the sideways OMEGA greek letter has the 16.65 numbers in it ... 16 gauge, 65mm chamber - you need a 70mm chamber to safely shoot modern day shells. DO NOT consider shooting this until you have the information verified by a good gunsmith that knows shotguns nd how to read proof marks.

 

I believe the lettre annale is a lower case 'j' without the dot, which would be 1931

Infro on Falla
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar ... a%20gb.htm

The gun has 2 1/2" chambers

 

Yes, it could be letter - j (1931).
But It is not going togheter with inspector proof (S asterix - C. Daenen, operative 1952-68).

One more question ....I have checked all markings and I couldnt find manufacurer signature. There are only proofmarkings of all kind. Is there any chance to determine manufacutrer at all ? ...

 

Where did you find the Falla mark? If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frères
There appears to be a mark forward of the flats on the R barrel - ?PM
Inspector's marks can not be used to date guns - the significance of some has been lost and they were re-used over time.

 

Yes - JF mark,.... I connected it to Jean Falla...
You are correct - there is another marking, but I have to check it at home...


Maybe RM

 

It is RM

 

I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. I suspect the gun is a Janssen.
Cornell Pubs has 1926 Janssen Fils
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it ... em_id=3618
and 1948 Janssen Freres repro catalogs
https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it ... em_id=3202

 

Thank you for all of help !!!

 

PLEASE read the first 3 posts before starting your thread.
Without quality images it is very unlikely that we can assist you.

 

Needing some help IDing this shotgun. I don't have a barrel. This is the only thing I've got. I'm assuming since the back is plastic it's made after plastic was invented? Haha. Would love some help, thanks!

 

I saw photo with marks similar on my gun on third post.

Can anybody send me note if recognize model, factory or year?
Thanks in advance.

 

'DP' appears on both the barrels and action flats, but unfortunately there is no definite match here
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a% ... s%20gb.htm
Dumoulin would be a guess.

The chambers are 2 3/4"

The Max. load numbers appeared only 1897-1903 so that dates the gun.
It was proved with Mullerite for a max. shot load of 1.13 oz. The 2 ... something is the powder amount.
IF it is 2.70 grams POUDRE = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains) Bulk Smokeless Mullerite.

Krupp Fluid Steel is good stuff suggesting that the gun quality is above utility grade.

 

I apologize for posting on a browning thread regarding a Remington but can anyone help be identify the year of manufacture and the year the barrel was repaired on this 11-48 .410? I’m assuming the stamp above the original stamp is a repair stamp?Which numbers do I use for the date code? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have posted other places but can’t get an answer. Thanks.

 

Yesterday my grandfather gave me this hunting gun... Because is my turn to start hunting...
But i want to know details about the gun my grandfather he doesn't know...
How old the gun is?