Yes it does. Bird shot doesn't penetrate enough to be used as a CQB load, period. Use #1 BUCK or larger.

 

If the former Vice President couldn't kill a lawyer with birdshot, then it's going to be much less effective against people.

 

For what its worth I have 5 boxes of Federal Premium (with the flite control) on order with Cabelas. It will take another few weeks to get here but those are 3 inch mag #4 buckshot. I will try them out, but some of the reviews I have seen were pretty impressive. At first I tried so Remington #4 buckshot and it really seemed to open up a lot.

 

First thanks for your service.

Second, welcome to the basement.

Third- for the love of whatever gods you may worship and the sanity of M24shooter and Oldpainless, please search for birdshot or buckshot threads on the forums. Some of them are quite lengthy, many are entertaining. I won't go into the details yet again.

Oh, for some penetration testing check out Oldpainless's sight http://www.theboxotruth.com/ and there's a sticky at the top of the forum on wound profiles.

 

I'm sure we would all agree that if you could reliably deliver a load of hot hunting birdshot square into the face of an assailant, at average room distances, chances are that the threat would cease at that moment.

But if you want to rely on threat stopping torso shots, you will need significant penetration, which the bird shot won't give you. As advised above, search deeper for much more discussion on this often raised topic.

 

HA, HA...styrgwillidar and DHart.......as a noob here, I made a noob move. AFTER I started the subject, I read up on some old articles in "The Basement". Wound Profiles was awesome. I posted as soon as I could that I have 3 inch magnum Federal Premium buckshot en route. Thanks a ton for the advice.

Now I wished I would have started a different topic such as:" When do you think to many accessories become a hindrance instead of an aide?" Heh, heh

 

About a week ago, I helped dispatch a large, wounded boar hog who had already been shot three times with a .45-70. The buddy I was with had only one round left in the single shot rifle, and he was not real keen on using it up in the pitch dark woods while the big hog was still breathing and gnashing his impressively sharp tusks :shock:

I had a Rem. 870 stuffed full of 00 buckshot. The first two shots, at point blank range, mostly glanced off the hog's thick neck hide. I was shooting at an angle of about 45 degrees. The third shot was within three feet of the pig's head, and it delivered the coup de gras. I had previously fired three shots at a range of about 40 yards while the (then) once shot hog was making his escape. I wanted to at least slow the boar down while my buddy could get off a fatal shot. It was totally ineffective. The pig never even flinched.

Now my shotgun is loaded with slugs. :wink:

I'm totally unimpressed with the penetration of buckshot. Granted, this was a tough old hog, but if it won't do the job at a range of five feet, then I think the most logical choice is to improve my weapon's penetration potential with something else, just in case the bad guy attacks in the winter wearing a heavy coat.

Birdshot is for birds and clay targets. I now think buckshot is better for shooting car radiators and maybe sinking canoes :lol:

 

Welcome and thanks for your service.

Check out the 12ga wound profiles sticky at the top of the page for an idea of the difference on penetration.

 

a strange question from someone with first hand experience of using a shotgun in a combat situation...................not picking an argument but you used a shotgun at war , to do doors and inside afterwards.....what was that gun loaded with? i would suggest you want similar for what your asking now..................that aside at a few feet away into human flesh any shotgun cartridge will cause massive damage (disabling damage) .....humans are soft comparative to wild boar

 

a strange question from someone with first hand experience of using a shotgun in a combat situation...................not picking an argument but you used a shotgun at war , to do doors and inside afterwards.....what was that gun loaded with? i would suggest you want similar for what your asking now..................that aside at a few feet away into human flesh any shotgun cartridge will cause massive damage (disabling damage) .....humans are soft comparative to wild boar

We were only issued 00 buckshot, it was very effective but I had never used any birdshot in that situation. Since I have been home and shooting birdshot, it just seemed to me at these distances 1 1/8 ounces of lead is 1 1/8 ounces of lead. Also, I worry about over penetration with a couple of young toddlers in the house, where in Iraq collateral damage was just another haji. I DO have experience with buckshot only though. Based on that and some of the advice I have received here, buck shot is on the way.

 

Also read YOUR local laws. In most cases it is illegal to use deadly force to injure, maim, or torture on purpose. A castle law will not protect you. If they survive after being shot with bird shot even a worthless half witted lawyer could prove BIRD shot is designed to kill a 2# critter, not a home intruder.

Chances being someone will most likely survive a bird shot wound, even the most nasty shallow wound you ever seen, they will have every right to sue you legally. If they survive after being hit with buckshot or a slug it will be obvious you used lethal force to kill, not injure.

Check your local laws, use the right ammo if its illegal to used lethal force to injure for sure and if maiming is not illegal, use buckshot at the least anyway. It is not worth the gamble.

 

art6555,
Yes, thank you for your service and welcome to The Basement.

Other than penetration and large wound channels, the other reason you'll find so many proponents of 00-buck and, lately, #1-buck here is the tight patterns offered particularly by Federal's and Hornaday's FliteControl offerings in these loads. Beyond 5-7 yards and out to 20-30 yards is where FC 00-buck really shines, maintaining inside-the-torso patterns which preclude flyers' dangers and legalities.

Birdshot is for birds, 00-buck is a deadly-threat stopper.
And piggies are the true reason God gave us 10mm longslides

 

Also read YOUR local laws. In most cases it is illegal to use deadly force to injure, maim, or torture on purpose. A castle law will not protect you. If they survive after being shot with bird shot even a worthless half witted lawyer could prove BIRD shot is designed to kill a 2# critter, not a home intruder.

Chances being someone will most likely survive a bird shot wound, even the most nasty shallow wound you ever seen, they will have every right to sue you legally. If they survive after being hit with buckshot or a slug it will be obvious you used lethal force to kill, not injure.

Check your local laws, use the right ammo if its illegal to used lethal force to injure for sure and if maiming is not illegal, use buckshot at the least anyway. It is not worth the gamble.

Good point and point well taken. I take for granted I am in Montana and our laws are very pro 2nd amendment, but it was only a few years ago that we passed the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground Laws. I will research that a little more.

After I asked this question I found a lot more info here at SW, I was out of touch with reality I see. When I used the 00 overseas, I just assumed that birdshot would have duplicated that. It is cheaper, easier on the shoulder and if I miss it wouldn't get something I wasn't trying to hit. Thanks for all the awesome advice, I went to Cabelas this morning and bought some of the Winchester 00 stuff we were issued. I have substituted the #4 birdshot in both of my shotties for the "big stuff", this will work until I get the Federal #4 buckshot I ordered. It has that new "Flite Control" and it looks pretty effective at keeping shot on the target.

 

art6555,
Yes, thank you for your service and welcome to The Basement.

Other than penetration and large wound channels, the other reason you'll find so many proponents of 00-buck and, lately, #1-buck here is the tight patterns offered particularly by Federal's and Hornaday's FliteControl offerings in these loads. Beyond 5-7 yards and out to 20-30 yards is where FC 00-buck really shines, maintaining inside-the-torso patterns which preclude flyers' dangers and legalities.

Birdshot is for birds, 00-buck is a deadly-threat stopper.
And piggies are the true reason God gave us 10mm longslides

OK, I double checked my Cabelas order, the 3 inch DID NOT have flight control, so I canceled the order. BUT I did find Natchez does have 2 3/4 in 00 buckshot with flight control for $7.49 a box. I ordered 10 boxes to try out. They have them in stock right now for anyone looking

 

If the former Vice President couldn't kill a lawyer with birdshot, then it's going to be much less effective against people.

Nice job of quoting that one while ignoring the RANGE that was involved with it, which, incidentally, and importantly, was more than just a wee tad OUTSIDE genuine self defence range.

A heavy load (ounce and a quarter or so) of high-velocity (1300fps) 4's @ 10 feet is NOT the same thing as a light load of 7 1/2's or 8's (from a 28 gauge no less, so, what, 1/2-ounce???)1150fps at 90 feet.

Everyone also obsesses about "1-shot-stops", which is a very foolish concept to have ANY faith in.
Feed whatever home invader is stupid enough to kick in your door 3 or 4 of those loads of 4's, one right on top of the other, and I'll BET you get his undivided attention (temporarily, while consciousness lasts).

 

Also read YOUR local laws. In most cases it is illegal to use deadly force to injure, maim, or torture on purpose. A castle law will not protect you. If they survive after being shot with bird shot even a worthless half witted lawyer could prove BIRD shot is designed to kill a 2# critter, not a home intruder.

Chances being someone will most likely survive a bird shot wound, even the most nasty shallow wound you ever seen, they will have every right to sue you legally. If they survive after being hit with buckshot or a slug it will be obvious you used lethal force to kill, not injure.

Check your local laws, use the right ammo if its illegal to used lethal force to injure for sure and if maiming is not illegal, use buckshot at the least anyway. It is not worth the gamble.

This particularly choice piece of logic means I should not use my target-practice-intent handgun ammo for my own protection, nor should I ever grab hold of my 10-22 (should it be available) because it, and that cartridge was CERTAINLY never expressly designed or intended to kill a human being.

I'm REALLY screwed if I am out dove hunting since my 12-gauge will be loaded with 7 1/2's and my .45 Auto is highly likely to be full of snake shells.

Better practice my magazine changes, with a big club in one hand (can't use the shotgun, it's full of BIRD shot), then pump the first pistol round into the ground (can't shoot it at the attacker) so I can get to the JHP's.

Ya think an attacker will oblige me to wait this long?

Only thing I ever saw to match THIS logic twist is the people (on other boards) who are civilians, many who never were GI, who carry FMJ ammo so they are Hague IV and World Court compliant (by not using "expanding" ammunition)..................................
Stupidity.

 

I'll just sit back now and watch this roll down into the weeing contest (bird-v-buck-v-slugs) it always gets to on every other board I've watched this question be asked (Gunboards, The Reload Bench, The Handloader's Bench (I am still amazed it never went to full-up stupid there, but we try hard to keep it civil there), the Ks Concealed Carry Forum).

It's been a while since the last one, suppose it was about time for it on one board or another.............

 

I'll just sit back now and watch this roll down into the weeing contest (bird-v-buck-v-slugs) it always gets to on every other board I've watched this question be asked (Gunboards, The Reload Bench, The Handloader's Bench (I am still amazed it never went to full-up stupid there, but we try hard to keep it civil there), the Ks Concealed Carry Forum).

It's been a while since the last one, suppose it was about time for it on one board or another.............

So you're just trolling?

 

I manage several pecan orchards that are infested with crows starting about September each year. They are serious pests in these groves and can eat a good number of nuts. I invite professional crow hunters to thin out the herd (or murder in the case of crows :wink: ).

I was in a gun store a few years ago when the crow guide came up to me, and we started to talk. He was out trying to recover a wounded crow when his brother in law spotted the bird flapping and foolishly shot. He tagged Jerry with a load of no. 6s at a distance of about 30 yards. It was a quartering hit, of sorts, that thankfully missed Jerry's eyes, but shot hit him in the back and ear on one side, barely missing his mouth and teeth also.

He pulled up his shirt to reveal about 40 or 50 festered up wounds that looked like pimples with small bruises around them. The doc opted to just let the pellets work their way out rather than try to remove each one which he thought might cause an even greater risk of infection. Penetration was on the order of just below the skin. Jerry was lucky he wasn't fronting the blast.

Sure, at ten yards the pellets might have gone on into internal organs like lungs, but at that moderate distance the penetration was very minimal.

He was wearing relatively light clothing which still really helped protect him.

My point in a previous post was that humans normally don't run around naked, and heavy clothing could easily stop or slow down many shotgun pellets regardless of size.

I'm ditching the buckshot in favor of slugs. I bet I won't have any trouble with penetration and at the short distances involved in a home invasion, the buckshot pattern wouldn't be spread out enough to be much of an advantage over a solid round. Others have mentioned this, but what's the difference between a small clump of buckshot and a slug at close range? Not much, but let that distance increase and the relatively small projectiles start to get dicey as far as effectiveness goes. Yes, buckshot is going to do the job at 20 ft., but why not go ahead and use a slug when a larger pattern won't be there to begin with?

YMMV

 

Federal FC LE127-00 9-pellet 1325fps 00-buck from tds-us.com @ $5.75/box of 5 currently showing in-stock.

 

clinchscavalry, the clothing issue is a valid issue. I am in Montana (I have about 17 deer I am watching in my back yard as I type this), but the weather here is cold 9 months out of the year. Not like Mid-West cold or snow, but enough to keep people dressed in layers. The "have-nots" are trying to take from the "haves" year round. That is why I use heavy for caliber ammo in my and guns. I guess I was easily entertained by the many, many little holes the birdshot showed. Kind of a claymore mine theory!

 

Federal FC LE127-00 9-pellet 1325fps 00-buck from tds-us.com @ $5.75/box of 5 currently showing in-stock.

THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS WHEN I BUY SOMETHING!!! :roll:
I find it elsewhere for 25% cheaper :shock:

 

Olddstuffya51911 I have a quick question. I assume you carry, or at least would use your 1911 in a self defense situation. Why did you chose the .45 ACP?

 

Read other posts, other forums: this topic has been beat to death.

When you come to the part about the difference between ``psychological stop`` and ``physiological stop`` you will be at the door of Enlightenment. Go forward if you please!

 

as a related aside.............i have known of licensed slaughter men here in the uk (due to their licensing they could have any gun they wanted or a captive bolt gun) actually using a 12g shotgun with a normal 30gm number 6 cartridge (what i use for pigeons and rabbits) to put a horse down by shooting it in the head...............so it will do a horses skull up close

as the OP asked it will hit like a lump of lead at such close quarters