Great now you ruined soup for me Jake! Kidding....

That's quite an elaborate display of what country music is. I guess being that I'm not a fan of it, I never really bothered to dig down in it as deep as you did. Putting the instrumentals aside for a second because they all sound the same to me, just some are twangier than others. Country music has always struck me as a form of story telling. If you are able to pull in your audience to your story and make them almost want to take on your role in the story, then you got a good country song IMO.

And yeah, commercialization of music is usually the silver bullet that always kills it. I guess Taylor Swift is pretty much the popular one as of late, but I honestly think most guys are more interested in her other features than her actual singing.

 

My comments on your post within the quote, my own words below...

Phid, after much thinking about our constant "what is and isn't country music" debate I have come to a few conclusions. Country music is like soup. It can have many different ingreedents but soup is obviously soup and must take on a certain form despite these different parts. Here are a few things that I feel must be part of music to classify it as country.

#1 The format of the music. As this is a nation of immigrants, country music is a melting pot of music. If you listen to classic country you will notice many different influences from the traditional music of different ethnic groups. Waltzes, cajun music, Irish music, and even polka can all be found in country music. Agreed.

#2 Instruments. Since country musics roots are from the south and west from poorer settlers and farmers the instruments have always been pretty simple. Guitars, banjos, fiddles, bass, steel guitar, dobro, maybe a mandoline or a piano. It seems anymore modern country is getting more and more complicated. Agreed, and I'd add an accordian and a harmonica.

#3 Content. The lyrics to the songs should either be about having a good time, or remembering hard times. Lost love, regretfull mistakes, or just out drinking and having a good time. As inspireing as some songs are I really don't want to hear a song about folks with ovarian cancer or going to the bahamas. Here we start to disagree a bit. I agree with nearly all of this, but "going to the bahamas" is just another form of drinkin' and having a good time. Would you classify Jimmy Buffet or some of the more "beach" oriented songs from Kenny Chesney as country? I guess this also shows our regional differences... I'm 45 minutes from the coast so the beach is very much a part of a "country life" for me.

#4 Presentation of the artist. IMO this breaks down into two subsections.

A: Vocal style. The artist should sing like country people talk, both with the accent, and vocabulary. I disagree. You do not have to have a country accent to sing country music. Zac Brown Band doesn't have an accent. Norah Jones doesn't have an accent. I consider most all of ZBB's music country, and certainly some of Norah Jones'...

B: Physical appearance. The artist should look like they're from the country. I don't see many cocktail dresses and guys with spikey hair or soul patches at the local tavern or MFA. Totally irrelevent.

Get a good combination of these qualities together and you have (IMO) real country music. There ate some newer artists out there that I feel could be good country artists if they don't go too far in commercializing their music. Jason Aldean, and Taylor Swift both have it in them to make some good country music. Jamie Johnson would probably have fit in well with DAC, the Hag, and Bocephus 40 years ago. I can understand that all music evolves but Country has really gotten away from its roots. I know you're a music buff Phid. What do you think? I do like me some Jamie Johnson...

I suppose I have a different definition of country music. I look more towards the actual music itself rather than who is performing it and their persona... For me it's all about the musicality. I find that country music invokes a certain feeling(s) depending on the style of song and subject matter. Garth Brooks "Ain't going down 'til the sun comes up" is going to have a very different feel to it than Trace Atkin's "Every light in the house is on," but they both have similar musical traits. There are set stanzas with refrains that you come back to several times through out the song. Now that's common through out most music, but with country, there are more patterns in voice and key. There's almost always a little section just after the second chorus (can't remember what this section is called! My band director would slap me...) that either slows or changes the pattern up just a bit, then you get WHAM! a key change. I'm not sure if that's a good enough description...but off the top of my head, if you listen to Kenny Roger's "The Gambler", when he gets to the line "Now every gambler knows the secret to survival..." is a key change - notice how the music sounds slightly higher and he sings slightly higher notes?

That's not nearly as popular in Pop music (sometimes only when a pop artist does a country song, like when Whitney Houston did "I will always love you" for that movie she was in with Kevin Costner,) a little more so in Rock (think Bon Jovi's "Livin' on a Prayer"), and nearly non-existant in rap or Latino.

Good discussion.

 

Great now you ruined soup for me Jake! Kidding....

That's quite an elaborate display of what country music is. I guess being that I'm not a fan of it, I never really bothered to dig down in it as deep as you did. Putting the instrumentals aside for a second because they all sound the same to me, just some are twangier than others. Country music has always struck me as a form of story telling. If you are able to pull in your audience to your story and make them almost want to take on your role in the story, then you got a good country song IMO.

And yeah, commercialization of music is usually the silver bullet that always kills it. I guess Taylor Swift is pretty much the popular one as of late, but I honestly think most guys are more interesting in her other features than her actual singing.

Glad to see I was able to educate you a bit. I have somewhat eclectic taste in music, and can even appreciate good musicians in generes that I don't personally care for. Look closely and you will even find country influence in other styles of music such as rock. In rock and rolls beginning bands often played in "****** tonks" which are country bar/dance halls because more respectable venues would not have them. Not to mention rock has some of its roots in country music, as well as blues.

 

My comments on your post within the quote, my own words below...

#3 Content. The lyrics to the songs should either be about having a good time, or remembering hard times. Lost love, regretfull mistakes, or just out drinking and having a good time. As inspireing as some songs are I really don't want to hear a song about folks with ovarian cancer or going to the bahamas. Here we start to disagree a bit. I agree with nearly all of this, but "going to the bahamas" is just another form of drinkin' and having a good time. Would you classify Jimmy Buffet or some of the more "beach" oriented songs from Kenny Chesney as country?

No

I guess this also shows our regional differences... I'm 45 minutes from the coast so the beach is very much a part of a "country life" for me.

[/quote%
This could be part of it.

#4 Presentation of the artist. IMO this breaks down into two subsections.

A: Vocal style. The artist should sing like country people talk, both with the accent, and vocabulary. I disagree. You do not have to have a country accent to sing country music. Zac Brown Band doesn't have an accent. Norah Jones doesn't have an accent. I consider most all of ZBB's music country, and certainly some of Norah Jones'...

ZBB does ride the line IMO. Their accent is pretty typical of the great planes area. Very subtle but a narive an spot a transplant pretty easily. I am not familiar with Norah Jones enough to recall any of her music off the top of my head.

I suppose I have a different definition of country music. I look more towards the actual music itself rather than who is performing it and their persona... For me it's all about the musicality. I find that country music invokes a certain feeling(s) depending on the style of song and subject matter. Garth Brooks "Ain't going down 'til the sun comes up" is going to have a very different feel to it than Trace Atkin's "Every light in the house is on," but they both have similar musical traits. There are set stanzas with refrains that you come back to several times through out the song. Now that's common through out most music, but with country, there are more patterns in voice and key. There's almost always a little section just after the second chorus (can't remember what this section is called! My band director would slap me...)[/qoute]I think "bridge" is what you're looking for.

that either slows or changes the pattern up just a bit, then you get WHAM! a key change. I'm not sure if that's a good enough description...but off the top of my head, if you listen to Kenny Roger's "The Gambler", when he gets to the line "Now every gambler knows the secret to survival..." is a key change - notice how the music sounds slightly higher and he sings slightly higher notes?

That's not nearly as popular in Pop music (sometimes only when a pop artist does a country song, like when Whitney Houston did "I will always love you" for that movie she was in with Kevin Costner,) a little more so in Rock (think Bon Jovi's "Livin' on a Prayer"), and nearly non-existant in rap or Latino.

Good discussion.

Maybe not in current pop but this is pretty standard in adult contemporary, gospel, and even rock. I agree that country evokes certain emotions and this, I believe, is mainly because country folks can relate to it. Maybe in your area hanging out at the beach is common, but in my area farmer john can't go on vacation cuz he's gotta milk the cows twice a day, or spray the crops or whatever, however he may have time to go to the bar and get rowdy on friday night. Also my area still holds a lot of the oldschool mentality "real men don't get emotional" etc. It's not so much machoism, as it is traditionalism.

I agree, good discussion.

 

You don't need to dress country to do country! :mrgreen:

 

You don't need to dress country to do country! :mrgreen:

ROTFLMAO! I LOVE THAT SCENE!

 

Country, bluegrass, and southern gospel were all that we listened to growing up (and still mainly do). Musically they are all pretty similar having come from the same groups and traditions here in the south. But I'm not as big of a country fan as I used to be though. It seems to me that somewhere in the mid 90's commercialization really ruined country music. To my thinking it got way too popified (if I can use that term). Especially the new young stars, they all look like they were cut from the same mold (there are a couple of bright spots though).

The women sing all touchy feelly stuff (definitely not like the songs of Loretta Lynn), and Kenny Chesney can't get away from senior year in high school or college frat parties on the beach. Merle Haggard will always be the the champion of the common man, Kenny Rogers will always be cool, Johnny Cash will always be the social commentator, Hank Williams Sr. will always be the godfather of country, George Jones will always be the king of heart break, Waylen and Willy will always be an institution, etc.... Very few of the new folks will have the impact on music and culture that those guys did.

I started high school in 1990. Country music reached a high point about that time with a lot of great new talent, and some older stars having a great second go round. But it fell off big time just a few years later. Country just don't have the "it" that it used to have. JMHO

 

Don't know much about what makes real Country Music, but I do know what like.

I could stare at Taylor Swift and Carrie Underwood all day long...

While I'm listening to Hank Williams III :wink:

 

I started high school in 1990. Country music reached a high point about that time with a lot of great new talent, and some older stars having a great second go round. But it fell off big time just a few years later. Country just don't have the "it" that it used to have. JMHO

Excellent post, Colonel, and you're spot on (almost) with the timing you present.

Garth Brook's first album came out in 1989. While there have been a few bright spots pop up since, that was the end as far as this nearly old fart is concerned.

That Zac Brown Band would even be considered borderline country? You 2 guys above have got to be kiddin' me and have obviously not cried in enough beers. That's about like saying The Monkees were almost classic rock. {CR8

 

I started high school in 1990. Country music reached a high point about that time with a lot of great new talent, and some older stars having a great second go round. But it fell off big time just a few years later. Country just don't have the "it" that it used to have. JMHO

Excellent post, Colonel, and you're spot on (almost) with the timing you present.

Garth Brook's first album came out in 1989. While there have been a few bright spots pop up since, that was the end as far as this nearly old fart is concerned.

That Zac Brown Band would even be considered borderline country? You 2 guys above have got to be kiddin' me and have obviously not cried in enough beers. That's about like saying The Monkees were almost classic rock. {CR8

C'mon Tom, cut us some slack. I was 7 when Garths first album came out. You do have to admit that Garth, Aaron Tipin, Mark Chesnut, and many of the greats from the 90's are different from those of the 70's and 80's. It's only natural the the music will continue to evolve. I just feel that a lot of newer country has lost touch with its roots.

 

:lol:

Mostly yankin' your and phid's chains, jake. :wink:

Now, somebody mentioned Hank III. I'll reserve comment for now...get back with me after his balls drop.

Y'all carry on....

 

:lol:

Mostly yankin' your and phid's chains, jake. :wink:

Now, somebody mentioned Hank III. I'll reserve comment for now...get back with me after his balls drop.

Y'all carry on....

Them ain't high balls sir, that there's Twang!

 

If ya like Hank III, how about Rev. Horton Heat, or BR549?

 

:lol:

Mostly yankin' your and phid's chains, jake. :wink:

Now, somebody mentioned Hank III. I'll reserve comment for now...get back with me after his balls drop.

Y'all carry on....

Them ain't high balls sir, that there's Twang!

Or he gets some nasal surgery! maybe have his adnoids removed! :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
{hs#

 

Them ain't high balls sir, that there's Twang!

Don't think so.

His grandaddy had twang. Roy Acuff had twang. Loretta Lynn...twang.

#3's got a cut throat.

But I'll take him over that rap crap any day.

 

If ya like Hank III, how about Rev. Horton Heat, or BR549?

Not a big Rev. Horton Heat fan but, I like some of the mainstream stuff.

And until you gave me cause to Google them I had never heard of BR549, probably because I was living in Cali during their hayday.

This is Good Stuff, I know it's off topic because it's not "Country", but I like it!

If you've never heard them either you olde phartes, Turn up your speakers / hearing aids etc. and give this a listen folks.

And totally SGW appropiate.

Thanks for turning me on to these guys Liljake 8)

 

Not a problem griz. One of the local public radio stations used to have "The Rockabilly Mood Swing" show on friday afternoons, featuring Horton Heat, BR549, Southern Culture on the Skids, The ******* Sons of Johnny Cash, The Drive By Truckers, and other jucy morsels of hillbilly rock and roll goodness.

Check out "Me'n Opie" by BR549. It is not safe for work, children, women, and probably even adults, but it is hilarious.

 

Check out "Me'n Opie" by BR549. It is not safe for work, children, women, and probably even adults, but it is hilarious.

Saw it, Listened to it, Liked it! Thanks Again!

But I figured i'd post the "Shotgun Boogie" link so as not to ruffle any smooth feathers.

 

That Zac Brown Band would even be considered borderline country? You 2 guys above have got to be kiddin' me and have obviously not cried in enough beers. That's about like saying The Monkees were almost classic rock. {CR8

Oh get out of here! You tell me this isn't beautiful country music!!!

-------------------
Ignorance is the Devil's whoopee cushion...

 

That Zac Brown Band would even be considered borderline country? You 2 guys above have got to be kiddin' me and have obviously not cried in enough beers. That's about like saying The Monkees were almost classic rock. {CR8

Oh get out of here! You tell me this isn't beautiful country music!!!

-------------------
Ignorance is the Devil's whoopee cushion...

Sorry bro but that could almost be Elton John.

 

I started high school in 1990. Country music reached a high point about that time with a lot of great new talent, and some older stars having a great second go round. But it fell off big time just a few years later. Country just don't have the "it" that it used to have. JMHO

Excellent post, Colonel, and you're spot on (almost) with the timing you present.

Garth Brook's first album came out in 1989. While there have been a few bright spots pop up since, that was the end as far as this nearly old fart is concerned.

That Zac Brown Band would even be considered borderline country? You 2 guys above have got to be kiddin' me and have obviously not cried in enough beers. That's about like saying The Monkees were almost classic rock. {CR8

When I was getting into high school we had Garth, Clint Black, George Strait, Alabama, Reba, George Jones was back, Vince Gill was new, Diamond Rio, Ricky Skaggs, Randy Travis, and a few others that were either just getting big or had exploded on to the scene just before. It was a great time for country music.

I don't think that the current crop as a whole can hold a candle to them. Although of the new guys I guess my favorite would be Brad Paisley. He can actually play a guitar, and his music is about common everyday life (classic country), and he can make you laugh about the most mundane things. He is kind of like Chet Atkins meets Roger Miller.

 

Sorry bro but that could almost be Elton John.

Are you kidding? Did you not hear that classic Statler Bros, Oakridge Boys harmony in the chorus? How about the violin (fiddle) and piano and twangy guitar? Are those not 3 instruments you listed earlier?

Speaking of... Wanna have your mind blown? Tell me this song originally from the White Stripes (about as far from Country as it gets) doesn't sound just a bit on the country-fied side!!!!

 

Now that you uninformed have hit this around for awhile, I will
tell you what country music is, so pay attention.

Country music got its name from when America was coming off the
farm. In the early 1900s 90 percent of Americans lived in a
rural setting. The music out there was guitar, fiddle, banjo,
piano if they were lucky. This was the music of low tech America
up until about 1940. As America entered the 2nd world war,
there was a large migration from the farm to the city and
manufacturing took off. In these larger city areas there
were actually large groups called bands making music, and
this was the big band era. The older generation all grew
up though with guitars, banjos, and fiddles out in the
coutry. The older generation called this country music,
because that is where they heard it when young growing up.
Now in the city, there were large bands making music and
on the radio there was the big bands. It was not long ago
that radio had come on the scene and that was where many
started hearing big band music even in the 1930s. So as
I said, the older folks called this more simple music that
they learned while out on the farm country music. It was
the music of the older generation. The younger ones growing
up in the city with radio, and now even the farmers with
radio were listening a lot to more complicated music of
the city.

As time went on all those people that grew up listening
to guitars, banjos, fiddles died, but their kids got
exposed to this older music because the parents listened
to it. The kids heard the country, but they also heard
the more modern city type products. They developed a
taste that was influenced by both. Kids from the 1950s
grew up hearing the older stuff and also rock and roll.
What they heard were influenced by the newer stuff, and
now drums, electric guitars, joined the older sound.

As the kids of 1950 became old folks by the 1980s country
music changed, right along with these folks. Country
music of 1980 was much closer to rock and roll than the
country of 1950. What happened?

Country music is actually the music of the older generation.
In 1950 when pop was Bill Haley and the Comets, Country
was guitars and banjos. That was the country of that
time. It was the music of the older generation. Now
country is much more like rock of the 60s and 70s. It
is again the music of the older generation, because that
is what they listened to then plus the older generation
music of their parents.

Country music 50 years from now will be more like what
the kids of today are listening to. Country music
is a moving target, that has much of what was older
music, nothing more.

Basically country music is named wrong. It should be
named "Music of the older".

Here are some good examples illustrating why I say
country is the music of the older generation:

wauntry, bluegrass, and southern gospel were all that we listened to growing up (and still mainly do).

When I was getting into high school we had Garth, Clint Black, George Strait, Alabama, Reba, George Jones was back, Vince Gill was new, Diamond Rio, Ricky Skaggs, Randy Travis, and a few others that were either just getting big or had exploded on to the scene just before. It was a great time for country music.

 

Here's my timeline for country music. It's always existed, but the first commercial recordings of country music came out in the 1920's with the early stars being the Carter Family and Jimmy Rogers. Late in the 1930's there's Bill Monroe and bluegrass and the first beginnings of modern country music with the Louisiana Hayride and later, the Grand Old Opry. After the war, there is the short phenomenal career of Hank Williams, and modern country music begins with Lefty Frizzel singing "I Love You a Thousand Ways" about 1950. But, it's in the late 1950's to about 1964 where the true, classic, golden era of country music was in full swing, and a sharp decline from about 1965 to the early 1970's. From the early seventies on until Randy Travis, Ricky Scaggs, and Reba McIntyre in the early eighties,,,there is a horrible drought where only a few artists keep the flame alive. From the early eighties until the rise of Garth Brooks, there is an echo of the earlier golden era of the early sixties,,,until sometime in the early ninties country music just simply dies. It's gone. There isn't any more of it. Even the murderer of country music, Garth Brooks, hasn't had a hit in years and years. But, there is always the hope of resurrection. Now and again a singer from the eighties such as Randy Travis or George Straight sings a country song, and you hear it on the radio. The last one I remember was "Three Wooden Crosses". Otherwise country music is nothing but gorgeous young girls who look wonderful on television and handsome young men who effect a nasal twang with rock bands blaring in the background. Not a one of them would have been asked to be a guest on the Porter Waggoner show.

 

I don't know jack diddly about music, never played an instrument or read a note. I don't own a single CD/record, I have no MP3 files, iPod, iTunes, or Napster. I listen to music in the car on the RADIO :roll: , when there is no talk radio on or during the ads, which I have zero patience for.

From that pathetic perspective…

What I notice from the snippets of CMT, concerts, record ads, DWTS that my wife watches, etc, is that what is so UN-COUNTRY about country these days is the cubic dollars associated with it. It is so SLICK, so perfected…

Every performer looks like the aforementioned Carrie Underwood or Kenny Chesney. They all have willowy 12 y/o bodies and huge fake tits, or bulging biceps and tanning salon tans.

Behind it all I see some hollywood image consultant, not a humble origin. It's as if "Murray Feldstein," from Brooklyn, now Beverly Hills, sat down at a staff meeting in his Century City skyscraper and wrote the specifications for what sells to teenie boppers, and their teenie bopper wannabee parents:

"Lets see, we need clear skin, blinding white teeth, a crew cut because the military is popular this year, big muscles because working out is cool, oh, and one of those cowboy hats."

"Sir, what about singing ability?"

"Don't worry about that ****, we'll get a voice coach, and the sound engineers can take care of the rest. Oh, and hire a choreographer; these idiots want to see pretty boy dance around like a ***."

To me its too much like Playboy magazine these days. Just pretty faces and bodies. Nobody wanted to see Johnny Cash with his shirt off, except maybe those lifers in Folsom. :twisted: