I think it's safe to say anyone who added a cutts compensator to a shotgun ruined its value and made it ugly as sin at the same time.

 

Before they went out of production Model 42s weren’t crazy expensive as they are today. A Cutts was considered an upgrade way back when. Choke tubes were not common.

 

Messing with the original condition of Winchesters or Colts results in attrition. And that has more than a little to do with current values of remaining originals.

 

More pictures would be helpful, but my guess is that the gun shown by Amboy left the factory as a plain barreled 2 1/2 skeet choked 26" specimen and the Cutts, rib, rebluing, and possibly the wood was done by Simmons at a later date. That is only a guess, though.

 

Upon a closer look at the pattern on the top of the rib, I'm fairly confident that it is an early Simmons rib with first style of matting. I have the same rib on a 28" 2 1/2 chambered Skeet 42 that I found in Kansas last year.

 

G4287SV first appears in the 1954 Winchester catalog --

and continued thru the 1958 catalog --

Right in the years Remington's Model 11-48 autoloader in .410-bore was taking over the .410-bore Skeet events. Then in 1959 Browning began offering the Superposed in .410-bore.

 

One of the LAST things I would ever own would be ANY Winchester (or any gun for that matter) with a rib that had Simmons stamped on the rib. UGH!! 🤢

 

On page 146 of his book on the 42, there is a picture of one, and underneath the picture Schwing states the following as a description:

"One of the rarest regular production model 42s. This 28" vent rib Skeet Grade is choked skeet and has a rare 2 1/2 in chamber. Serial number 137,362. Winchester sold only 61 of these vent rib Skeet Grades under the symbol number G4287."

The gun Amboy has pictured is said to have a 26" barrel.

 

Definitely not as valuable as a factory non compensated version but still desirable to a Winchester collector.

 

Factory Cutts installs on plain barrel new M12s had an integral threaded flange for accepting the cage and a slightly higher comb height to avoid shooting low. Some were marked WS1, with the Cutts. Maybe same for Factory 42s?

 

Model 12s or 42s that had factory installed Cutts compensators on them would have no choke marking on the barrel, unless they were sent back to Winchester for one to be installed later.

 

No.

 

map17 is correctly stating that the plain barrel flange mounted Cutts Model 12 has no choke marking and never had the WS1 choke marking. Arloe's comment was incorrect.

 

This is what appears to be a very clean factory Cutts M12.

Winchester 12 Slide Shotgun 12ga

Winchester 12 Slide Shotgun 12ga for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

This is what appears to be a very clean factory Cutts M12.

Winchester 12 Slide Shotgun 12ga

Winchester 12 Slide Shotgun 12ga for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

That doesn't look like the flange barrel Model 12s I've seen and shot at military gun clubs in the 1970s. On them there is a radius from the barrel into the flange. Pre-WW-II they offered the flange barrel Cutts Compensator Model 12 Skeet Gun in 12-, 16- and 20-gauge. 20-gauge --

16-gauge --

12-gauge --

The picture used in the Winchester catalogs certainly doesn't accurately show the flange. From 1939 --

from 1952 --

 

map17 is correctly stating that the plain barrel flange mounted Cutts Model 12 has no choke marking and never had the WS1 choke marking. Arloe's comment was incorrect.

I made the comment about WS-1 only because I remember reading it somewhere at some time (I'm 71). I have a mind like a steel trap--much of what goes in gets mangled. I had that WS-1 thing in there for a long time.

Ron Stadt's 2nd edition on Winchester shotguns and shotshells states on page 112 (note 14) that generally there are no choke markings on factory-installed device guns. "However, factory workers may have taken guns from inventory, fitted [choke] devices, and altered box end labels."

That can't be in the case of Cutts Comps, given that the flange/shoulder had to be integral to the barrel, and not present on standard gun models. Stadt's book has mistakes, but it got me collecting Winchester shotshells 3 decades ago, so it's very close to my heart.

As well, Madis's book on the M12 states on page 52 that "Guns which had factory installed variable chokes when they left the factory usually have the step at the muzzle and do not have choke markings."

But yes, Mike, I'm happy to defer to your correction. I have a factory Cutts plain bbl. skeet gun (not so marked by serial number) 12g from 1950 (Model #G1285S) that was refinished, but it looks decent and I have lots of fun with it on my wobble trap.

Thank you, Mike. I happily stand corrected.

Model 12s or 42s that had factory installed Cutts compensators on them would have no choke marking on the barrel, unless they were sent back to Winchester for one to be installed later.

 

A very eloquent response, and I most certainly will borrow your take on the "mind like a steel trap" expression. I laughed out loud when I read it. I also have the Stadt and Madis books, along with the one by Riffle, and both of Schwing's on the M21 and M42, plus a few others whose titles escape me at the moment. I've always shunned Cutts guns because of their appearance, but I don't think I would mind a factory original specimen, if the price and timing were right.

I hope you and yours have a great Thanksgiving!

 

Link to relevant SGW thread concerning M-42s stamped WS-1: https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/winchester-model-42-ws-1-skeet.394764/

Yes, there's sufficient evidence to believe they exist. No, they don't have a compensator - which is probably why they do have the WS-1 stamp.

 

The barrel marked ‘ skeet’ should be an indicator that the cutts is not factory. Someone more familiar with the style of rib post’s may comment but they are not what I have observed previously on factory Winchesters of any gauge.

 

The style of the rib's post are commonly referred to as the "donut post" which was the first type of rib found on 42s starting in 1954 around serial # 125,000 until the end of 1957 around serial # 149,000. This information is found in Schwing's book on the M42. My understanding is that this style of rib was used on the M12 also.

 

The gunsinternational linked gun that Map17 posted does not appear to be an original flanged Cutts gun. The Cutts was installed on a "non flange" barrel.

 

The M12s which left the factory equipped with Cutts compensators were seen on guns with both flanged and non-flanged barrels, correct? If that is so, how can one determine which type of barrel a particular factory equipped Cutts gun would have, without removing the compensator? What visual clues might there be?

 

The gun listed on GI is stated as dating from 1954. So, no flanged barrel. Thanks.

 

The 12 gauge is not a flange barrel. They don't show the choke marking. The 42 at the beginning of this thread should have offset proofs, correct?

 

I own both a 12 gauge franged barrel Cutts gun and a non flanged vent rib 12 gauge factory Cutts gun. Neither have choke markings. If a gun with choke markings is represented to be a factory Cutts gun, how would you tell or even suspect that it is factory?

 

I think that's a fair question. No one is going to take a choke marked cutts as factory, even if it did happen.

 

Regarding Lowgun's question, the only scenario that comes to mind would be if a non-Cutts M12 was returned to the factory at a later date for a Cutts retro fit, and documentation existed attesting to that.