Not liking the range in powder weights, this means that Federal isn't doing any capability studies on thrown charge weights. With that range I suspect the standard deviation is rather large, which leads directly to a rather large 6 sigma spread, possibly as much as 1.5 grains. What you may want to do is check the charge weight of 30 charges and post the standard deviation for that.

BTW, in my experience a small flake powder such as ST7625 will produce a SD of 0.074 from a volume powder measure and a 6 sigma spread of 0.444 grains. For large flake such as Unique or Longshot the SD is 0.17 grains with a 6 sigma spread of 1.02 grains. BTW for a MEC 600 or Sizemaster if you leave the powder bushing parked under the powder bottle as you cycle the press you can expect to basically triple the Standard Deviation. It's why I've notched that lockout bolted to the charge bar so that I can offset the powder bushing from under the powder bottle. Doing this makes for much more consistent ammo.

 

scooter123 indicates: "What you may want to do is check the charge weight of 30 charges and post the standard deviation for that."

Speaking only for myself, cutting open 10 shells and doing all the pellet counting and powder weighing that Joe Hunter did; is far more effort than I want to expend.

IMO, the sample size seems more than adequate enough to derive useful results.

 

scooter123 indicates: "What you may want to do is check the charge weight of 30 charges and post the standard deviation for that."

Speaking only for myself, cutting open 10 shells and doing all the pellet counting and powder weighing that Joe Hunter did; is far more effort than I want to expend.

IMO, the sample size seems more than adequate enough to derive useful results.

Yep. This entire exercise was way more work that I would find useful to provide any formation.............

We all know ammunition is mass produced and has veriations in numbers and weights - all within tolerences.

 

scooter -- Thanks for your comments, but I think I'll pass on cutting open 30 more rounds to get a SD and Six Sigma. The shells are too hard to come by right now!

Thanks to oyeme and Road Rat for their comments, too.

Shotguns are pretty low-tech firearms, so some variation is to be expected, but I enjoy knowing what's in the ammo I'm shooting and how it performs in my gun/chokes.

Good luck!

 

I doubt the first load you tested had that many 7 1/2's in a 1 1/8 oz load ?
It looks to me by a 100 pellets off !

 

Six Sigma...been down that horror show of defining the product specification. For all we know the product spec for Top Gun is 1 FTF in 10k shells.

 

From a Six Sigma perspective when I used to do work for Remington as a Black Belt and manufacturer of wads. It was a pretty open spec as some of the shotgun shells a pretty good size variation did not change the ballistics. The most important part of the shell was the only one that was being consistently engineered and fine tuned which was the wad. Slight variations in the wad could have major runability and also ballistic issues.

 

As a side note, I had to dig into my stash of 12 ga field and target that I bought several months ago. I was experiencing a failure to fire about 1 per box fired from a 725. It may be somewhat a firing pin issue but did not experience it with other manufacturers or reloads. The primers occasionally seemed seated deeper than others.

 

Remember that sometimes product requirement drive specification, i.e. is the product suitable for the end use. But other times the manufacturing capability drives the specifications. This is what we are able to make, so this is what we will sell within some limits. It might cost a bunch to tighten up the specifications for a market that could care less. Before bad mouthing the Federal tolerances I would like to see same from other companies and common tolerances for amateur hand loading. We tend to superimpose our analog sensibilities on a digital world. We think that because we can measure to a certain number of (mathmatically significant digits, those digits must matter to our end use application. Maybe, maybe not. A sigma of 0.5 gr is probably no issue at all for a scattergun.

 

Remember that sometimes product requirement drive specification, i.e. is the product suitable for the end use. But other times the manufacturing capability drives the specifications. This is what we are able to make, so this is what we will sell within some limits.

That's quite a world salad. It is all very, very simple. Top Guns and Gun Clubs are not, and never have been premium shells. They go bang, and they are affordable. If you want better efficiency shells, you have to go to the Remington STS / Nitro 27 / Fed HOA / Win AA class. It is that simple, that straightforward.

 

Joe noted ".104", .100", .100", .099", .099", .096", .095", .095", .095", .095", .095", .093", .093", .092", .091", .091", .091", .090", .088", .087", .086", .083", .082", .081", .081" " for TG's.

The 7-1/2s range from about #6-3/4 to #9-1/4 actual shot diameter. If you want better hulls, brass caps, higher antimony, and better screening . . . it costs more to make them and more to buy them as a result.

 

Joe,Thank you for your research and the willingness to share it. I wouldn’t do this myself but I can appreciate when someone is this passionate about a subject. Keep it coming ,I’m listening. 🤙

 

He is a tremendous resource.

 

Yall have WAY too much spare time.
Theres not a soul here that could tell the difference by dropping the hammer on either of those shells.

 

Maybe, maybe not. My point was Joe has the time ,interest and passion to study loads and share his results. For this he should be commended.

 

So the hulls are the same correct? Field & Target vs Fed Top Gun.

 

STS and AA's. Efficiency = pattern efficiency expressed in percentage.

 

Why not just call it pattern percentage?

It's really not a measure of efficiency.

 

It appears that Federal shot in these two products is no better than "floor sweepings" with a size range like reclaimed shot.
Thank you to Joe Hunter for his test results.

 

For what it is worth, I have shot multiple 100's in trap and multiple 90's plus in sporting with those cheap Federal top gun shells. If you put the gun where it needs to be, targets will break.