I believe the idea is hard focus on the target is best achieved when the target is central in our vision.

IMO you can't hard focus on anything that isn't in your central vision.

 

Gil sometimes solves problem that don't exist.

Many a shooter who has failed to train (enough) blames outside things for his misses.

There's no secret. You have to practice til you know how to shoot. Even if you have to contort yourself around a gun. All of the other stuff is total BS.

 

Gil is correct. This glue your face to the stock on every presentation has gotten out of hand.

Clay target; 50mph +/-
Shot charge; 850mph +/-

Everyone thinks they have to hard mount every time…… not remotely true.

 

I shoot right handed both eyes open low gun and I am basically left eye dominant. There are a couple presentations that give me trouble sometimes, incomers and L to R crossers, For the crossers I turn my head more than normal to the left so that my right eye can pick up the target at the same time as my left. It works for me.

 

One of the major things I have to control when shooting is "overthinking it", as this can lead to measuring. Looking back at the trap by putting my nose on it can on some presentations lead me to "overthinking it", in addition to focusing on the target for too long.

 

Absolutely. It seems to me that Gil makes some good points such as centering the eyes, but then adds in a portion of what my dad would have called flannel. Today we'd call it techspeak. We all know about minimum gun movement, but we need to be aware of minimum focus time as well. Clearly Gil doesn't get it.

Whilst it's handy to know where the trap is, no one in the UK - and I mean no one - advocates looking towards the trap unless of course it's placed right in front like a trap target.

 

FTR, I've never heard Gil say "point your nose at the trap." I have heard him say get your head off the stock and point your nose back towards the trap. He often references a football field yardage at the same time, 100 yard line being BP, 0 being the trap and the "20" (or whatever) being the LP... At the same time he is also a proponent of soft-focus in that LP and implementing "quiet-eye" (Google it if you don't know) before calling pull.

 

FTR, I've never heard Gil say "point your nose at the trap."

From the linked article by Gil Ash:

"The best way to do that involves following the target with your nose. So you look back at the trap machine in order to establish the target early...The focal point is always at the trap."

Article

Edit: can't insert the link to the article. But if you search for the following you'll find the article: "Gil Ash on Mastering Peripheral Acceptance: How to Take Your Clays Scores From 50 to 90 by Rebuilding Your Comfort Zone"

 

Jack, I noticed that as well but was confident it was just a grammatical oversight. I copied and pasted Gil’s post so as to not change his intent in any way. In my post I mentioned towards the trap.

The subject is at the core of what I asked you about last week. My confidence in Gil and the OSP approach is high but this one item has always bothered me. After several years off due to surgeries that put me on my butt I’m back to shooting. In addition I’ve rebooted indoor flashlight and 3 bullet training so this turning my head is key as I want to ingrain the best approach I can. For anyone reading this who doesn’t know what this is I’m training my move and mount at home so that in the cage it happens automatically and all I have to think about is the pair in front of me right now.

 

Not sure on some of this but i definitely am beginning to understand the importance of hard vs soft focus. And sometimes that soft focus is a tool that keeps me from getting too far out of the gun.

 

If your eyes are centered (generally where your nose points) out from the trap, usually something between ⅓ and ⅔ back from your HP depending on the target, then your peripheral vision will pick up the arm or target blur two to three times faster than your central vision. Hence the whole point is to set up to take full advantage of that. Quiet eye is basically a relaxed vision time right before the call so your peripheral is better primed to catch the motion, again aiding quicker acquisition. After that, there is a point in the transition from soft to hard focus or peripheral to central vision that it's really easy to "loose" the target, especially with faster ones and quartering out since they are both changing distance rapidly as well as crossing. As such, you don't want your mount or your move interfering with that transition any more than necessary, and why the mounting drills help.

 

If your eyes are centered (generally where your nose points) out from the trap, usually something between ⅓ and ⅔ back from your HP depending on the target, then your peripheral vision will pick up the arm or target blur two to three times faster than your central vision.

Jack, is your HP typically near the 70 yard line on a crosser? Asking as trying to figure out how far back you go for your look point so how far back your head might turn.

 

@SmokeJS

I am left-handed. So for a faster L>R crosser, I am usually soft-mounted --gun in shoulder, head off stock and looking over it-- with my HP about the 50 and LP about the 30 from the trap. However for R>L crossers, being left-handed is more forgiving and I can stay mounted and watch the target into the barrel, so here I generally only need to have my HP at about the 70, with my head slightly relaxed off full mount and my LP at about the 50, but that side is forgiving enough I could have my LP at the 30 and HP at the 50 if I wanted. Hope this makes sense.

PS: All this changes slightly for FITASC where I am always engaging from a low mount. Here, BP choice that allows time to mount with a good visual lock on the target is the critical step.

 

@SmokeJS

I am left-handed. So for a faster L>R crosser, I am usually soft-mounted --gun in shoulder, head off stock and looking over it-- with my HP about the 50 and LP about the 30 from the trap. However for R>L crossers, being left-handed is more forgiving and I can stay mounted and watch the target into the barrel, so here I generally only need to have my HP at about the 70, with my head slightly relaxed off full mount and my LP at about the 50, but that side is forgiving enough I could have my LP at the 30 and HP at the 50 if I wanted. Hope this makes sense.

PS: All this changes slightly for FITASC where I am always engaging from a low mount. Here, BP choice that allows time to mount with a good visual lock on the target is the critical step.

Since you guys are chatting about crossers. Where are your feet in all of this? When you setup for the L->R crosser, are you setting up at the BP, then twisting back to the HP? Or something different? I ask because i see a lot of different approaches to crossers..

 

Something that gets overlooked is how different all of our eyes and bodies are - and continue to change. All of us see and operate in the world differently, and we need to account for this in how we teach and pass along knowledge.

Would say that you know how you see and move best - the trick is to incorporate this into your use of the shotgun. For look, hold, and shoot points on any given bird I would find those sweet spots for you where your eyes and body have the easiest time acquiring the target and executing the shot. Keep it simple and don't overthink.

 

I shot skeet for 25 years before I shot any sporting, and another ten years before I shot appreciable amounts of sporting. I try to keep my sporting as similar as I can to my skeet. I roll my eyes on most shots at skeet and do so at sporting.

 

I’m wondering if there’s a tradeoff when doing that? Does it degrade the ability to get the gun properly mounted under the dominant eye particularly when the target is a big, sweeping crosser? My head would probably have to move a fair bit given my hold point is closer to the break point than what most use.

No, there is no tradeoff, especially if you do plenty of practice mounts at home.

 

Optimally set for the point at which you will pull the trigger. Cheat back if you are off balance/awkward/over-twisted when you call for the bird.

 

For the life of me I do not see how you can point your nose at the target and mounting your gun with a proper cheek weld at the same time. Maybe my noggin’ is deformed.

 

You can't and don't.

You use a soft/cheat/etc. mount so you can keep the muzzle at the hold point while being able to point your nose where ever you want. As you start to move your nose with the target, the muzzle will also start to move with the target and the stock will come into your cheek so that your mount is complete as you get to the break point. Forget the muzzle, stay focused on the leading edge so you can match speed and presto, break-o. Dead bird.

No? Watch some of the top shooters shooting FITASC on YouTube. That's exactly what they're doing...except that they're holding below the FITASC line not just using a "soft" mount.

 

It's amazing that some second targets on true pairs can be broken given that the "nose on the trap" and low gun routines don't work well with these targets.

 

😂

 

Just my two cents, but I find that Gil over complicates things. The best coach I’ve had keeps things simple and I’ve had good results under his instruction.

 

Gurus create problems so they can remain gurus.

This guys is so complicated, you need to take take a geometry set with you.

 

I disagree. I would say he simplifies things to the point double-digit IQ’s can understand it. The problem he has if anything, is low-normal IQ’s wanting to parse every word and and not being smart enough to pick up on the subtleties.

 

Again, people that don't know Gil tend to quote him without the relevant context and then attempt to declare it an absolute. In the case above, he's talking specifically about what he refers to as a "challenge move" when you want to take the target as quickly off the arm as you can. In that instance, yes, you would want to be looking at the trap and engaging the blur.

 

Gil has had a lot of opinions over the years. PLUS he LIKES to talk and often creates confusion.

He's come full circle on some of his opinions . Good luck.

 

Amen

 

The statement Gil made "The focal point is always at the trap" is a direct quote.

 

What do you think he tell you to do if the trap was not even visible? Just pack up and go home?

What about a trap that is close and to the side of you, throwing a fast straight-away? You think he'd say to put your nose on the trap?

It is good plan for a lot of presentations, but he did not mean every, single one.

 

I can't get past his tv evangelist delivery so have no idea if he knows which end is up. I just think eye discipline is where it's at if you want to see 90s on the regular.

 

The great Chuck Dryke used to say “ it doesn’t matter if you point your *** at the North Star it is your eyes that break the target.” A great many champions began their journey in his “eye room”.

The function of a good clean mount on a gun that fits is understood but it is vision that kills targets.

 

i don't know what situation there is other than a shallow trap shot where you should look at the trap. i gotta figure this is some sort of context misunderstanding.

 

Did you read the article?

 

I think the better questions to be asking first in almost any thread here are: Who are you? What are your credentials? What class are you in? How long have you been competing in NSCA registered tournaments?

From there it might then be easier to prioritize the answers given…

 

thank you !