You can use the Fiocchi hull data with the Rio hull, but the Winchester primers will be too loose. That's not too much of a problem in fixed breech guns but in autoloaders they will fall out and guaranteed will find their way into the tiniest place and cause a jam that will make you learn new curse words.

I shoot a lot of Green Dot, and in four 12 gauge and one 20 gauge gas autoloaders it is no dirtier than any other powder. Used side by side with the supposedly "cleaner" International Clays I really can't see any difference in dirt.

So, your scenario makes good sense. Those are good wads, I'm working my way through a case each of 1205's and 1215's and I'm liking them. I just started using the PT 1251 & 1253 for steel loads and they seem to perform very well for the task.

 

You can use the Fiocchi hull data with the Rio hull, but the Winchester primers will be too loose.

Yes, I'm aware they would be loose, in the short term I would likely end up using a pocket correction tool. Longer term, I'd like to look at the cheaper rio primer when it is in stock at Natchezss has them, for bulk discount.

I didn't realize that load data should be similar for the two hulls. I'll ask about rio primers in the combination specifically in the euro hull reloading subforum I suppose.

So, your scenario makes good sense. Those are good wads, I'm working my way through a case each of 1205's and 1215's and I'm liking them. I just started using the PT 1251 & 1253 for steel loads and they seem to perform very well for the task.

Thanks for the input!

 

Check out our forum sponsor Gamaliel for primers. They usually have the Nobel 209 primers for a good price.

I have run through about 15K of these this year, and in every shotgun I own, plus friends guns, and never had any issue with them. They are a perfect fit in the Rio hull.

 

One of the things I have understood to be wary of is swapping components in loads.

So, it is said here and other posts that I can use data for Rio and Fiocchi hulls relatively interchangeably.

Now, the reloading PDF for the VP20 mentions a Fiocchi with a Fio-616 primer and Green Dot powder, no Rio primer loads in this configuration.

For the data on the Fiocchi primers, we are looking at pressures of 10,000 and 10,400. If memory serves, at these pressures it is recommended not to swap components, as you are in the danger territory, correct?

Sounds like I'd need to get my own shells tested to be sure in that scenario, or risk danger?

Thanks!

 

Check out our forum sponsor Gamaliel for primers. They usually have the Nobel 209 primers for a good price.

I have run through about 15K of these this year, and in every shotgun I own, plus friends guns, and never had any issue with them. They are a perfect fit in the Rio hull.

So, they are a perfect fit, but I don't have any load data for them with the VP20 wad unfortunately, but the price does seem right.

I do have data for the fio-616, that I can actually find in stock (from the VP20 load data PDF:

• Fiocchi hull (I'll be using Rio hulls as a substitute)[/*]
• Fio-616 primer[/*]
• Green Dot Powder (24 gr)[/*]
• Wad: VP20[/*]
• Shot: 1-1/8oz[/*]
• PSI: 10,600[/*]
• FPS: 1330[/*]

I'm thinking about using this load for my HV rounds.

Ideally I'd also load HV 1-1/4oz loads, but I don't have any data for green dot, looks like my best bet is Universal Clays, as they list a number of loads that look interesting.

 

Check out our forum sponsor Gamaliel for primers. They usually have the Nobel 209 primers for a good price.

I have run through about 15K of these this year, and in every shotgun I own, plus friends guns, and never had any issue with them. They are a perfect fit in the Rio hull.

So, they are a perfect fit, but I don't have any load data for them with the VP20 wad unfortunately, but the price does seem right.

I do have data for the fio-616, that I can actually find in stock (from the VP20 load data PDF:

• Fiocchi hull (I'll be using Rio hulls as a substitute)[/*]
• Fio-616 primer[/*]
• Green Dot Powder (24 gr)[/*]
• Wad: VP20[/*]
• Shot: 1-1/8oz[/*]
• PSI: 10,600[/*]
• FPS: 1330[/*]

I'm thinking about using this load for my HV rounds.

Ideally I'd also load HV 1-1/4oz loads, but I don't have any data for green dot, looks like my best bet is Universal Clays, as they list a number of loads that look interesting.

Based upon testing that others and myself have done, you can use Fio or WW primer data for those NS primers without any safety worries.

 

The maximum that Alliant lists for a straight-wall wad with green dot and a Fiocchi Fio 616 in a Fiocchi hull is 20 grains, and 23 grains with a taper'd wall wad :

I personally think 24 grains and 1,330+ fps is way too much for that load. Try 20-21 grains.

 

The maximum that Alliant lists for a straight-wall wad with green dot and a Fiocchi Fio 616 in a Fiocchi hull is 20 grains, and 23 grains with a taper'd wall wad :

I personally think 24 grains and 1,330+ fps is way too much for that load. Try 20-21 grains.

There's something weird going on with the online info at Alliant; they have two entries for Fiocchi hulls, so I think you're only getting one of them. If you go to the actual printed manual or pdf (2014), there are lots of Fiocchi hull/Fio 616 loads with big charges of Green dot. Here's one: 1 1/8 Green Dot Fio. 616 12S3 & DRF3 25.0 grs 9600 psi 1300 fps (p60).

Of course, Alliant doesn't list any loads for PT wads, or any other Euro wads. The BPI manual (insert derogatory comments below!) has lots of Green Dot loads for the PT1220, but they don't list 1-1/8 oz loads for Rio hulls, probably because the capacity is too great for a good fit. They list lots of loads for Fiocchi hulls, some of which are in that PT loads data above, and I've tried a lot of them---they are great, and run as advertised, verified by chrono (though I've never pressure tested anything).

The 24 grain load mentioned above is one of them, and requires an overshot card to allow any kind of crimp. In a Rio hull, you'd need a really thick OS card (more like a nitro card) or a whole bunch of Cheerios. IIRC, I ran that load with BB lead in Fio hulls, and it was great---perfect height and no card needed.

 

I have tons of the Remington Shur Shot shells (same as gun clubs) from what I can tell, as well as Rio Blue hulls. Ideally I'd like to use one of the two of these hulls. I understand based on the PDF that if I were to use the VP20 in the Remington (taper) hulls, it is recommended only to go to a max of 1 1/8 oz shot. Presently, I have about 2,000 Winchester primers, and hoping that by the time I'm done with them, I'll have a supply of the Rio primers available as well.

All suggestions are welcome. I know green dot has a reputation of being dirty according to a number of posts, and not recommended for an autoloader. Did I read correctly that with higher pressures it may burn cleaner? I have both the Beretta A300 outlander (autoloader) that I picked up recently, as well as my trusty Benelli Super Nova which isn't autoloading, so if I need to only use them in a specific gun, I can do that.

I don't have a lot of experience with dirty shot, as mostly I have shot Rio shells in the past, and before that the Remington Shur Shots which didn't seem excessively dirty, so I don't really have a good frame of reference.

Thanks!

I'd also add that the fit in Remington hulls is rather tight with PT wads; it can be done, but it really feels like you're forcing it. These wads are optimized for straight-wall Euro hulls. There are Fiocchi hulls galore where I shoot---can't imagine those would be too hard to find.

As for the dirtiness of Green Dot: it's a bit dirty at the typical low pressures, but my finicky vintage Mossberg 1000 trap gun will run GD low-pressure loads all day without a hiccup. You should be fine with your HV loads.

 

There's something weird going on with the online info at Alliant; they have two entries for Fiocchi hulls, so I think you're only getting one of them.

Did you mean two Fiocchi entry for "primers" (in the drop-down selection) ? If so, I already know about that (the other one doesn't return any results).

The two Fiocchi "hull" entries (on the main selection page) is for 2-3/4 inch and 3-inch.

 

Hi Republican,

I just meant that in the online Reloader's Guide, under 12 ga, Green Dot, Fio 616 primers, they list "Fiocchi Plastic", which gets you a few 1 oz international loads, and then "Fiocchi Plastic Target Shells", which has lots more loads (and, as you said, none of the SW-type wads go over 20 grains of Green Dot.) But the actual manual, and pdf of the manual have many more loads, and they use 25 grains of Green Dot in that 1-1/8 load with Fio hull/Fio616 and this: 1 1/4 Green Dot Fio. 616 12S4 23.0 grs 9700 psi 1250 psi (p57).

So, looking at the online version more closely, you didn't miss anything---these just weren't there! Not sure why the Fiocchi data are so poorly organized (even in the printed manual.) They really make you dig for this stuff.

I've tried these 2 loads, and they are fine; neither one comes across as especially hot, and they are still a little dirty (I have a ton of Green Dot, if you're wondering why I'm trying all these otherwise obscure loads!)

 

Well cool!, - thanks for the very detailed follow-up.

 

Well cool!, - thanks for the very detailed follow-up.

Just went back to the online Alliant guide, and tried running the filters the other way around (pick hull first, then primer) and the 1-1/4 load turned up---I could swear it didn't show when I ran it the other way around. So, anyway, there appears to be some funkiness in the online version of the manual; I usually just look at the pdf, though I can see why it might be nice to be able to search and filter.

 

Yup, - said 'funkyness' was brought to the attention of Alliant, and they openly said here in the forum that they acknowledge that it needed fixed, and that they would fix it. That was over a year ago. Just don't use the filters.

On the printed/PDF manual, do be aware that some of loads listed there won't match the published velocity that you'll find on the webpage. That is because they (Alliant) rounds the velocity figures up or down to match the publishers "column-based" format template for that PDF file.

While I'm generally "Ok" with the low-price economy PT wads post the whole Helarco, and HelarcoUS debacle of yester-year, I still wouldn't use them in taper'd hulls. There's simply too may good and better suited taper-wall wads for taper'd Remington and Winchester hulls.