The hunting styles will be pretty similar between these breeds, it is mostly a matter of personal preference and bloodlines in my opinion.

I have owned a pudelpointer and a Griffon and have hunted over several of each with good success. They look similar and there isn't much of a difference between them. If litter timing would work out, I would pick a pup of either breed again.

I have not owned a Small Muensterlander but have hunted over a couple. I would gladly get a pup if I had a local source for one. The only person I know with SMs has only an occasional litter and he generally has them spoken for long before breeding. I would like one as my wife prefers their looks over the wirehaired breeds as well as their size.

My only negative thought on them is their longer hair catches more burrs and other debris than the wirehairs. Trimming the coat and use of cooking spray helps but there is still more brushing to do in most cases.

If an SM is more appealing to you, look hard at it. You can;t go wrong and you will not second guess yourself later.

 

Uglydog...thanks for the thoughtful reply. Any thoughts generally how those three breeds and the SM in particular compare to a Brit?

 

I would say they all are pretty comparable though the Britt may be a little "softer" or "gentler" in personality as a very general rule. Those are poor words as they mean something different depending on the individual and their experiences. They all can be loving animals to their family but I think the Britt is a little less "sharp" towards small animals that people generally consider pests while the other three can be pretty aggressive to them.

I would consider the SM to be closer to a Britt in temperament than the Griff or PP but my general preference in these last two breeds is more toward sharpness so I am biased that way. The SMs I am familiar with are pretty docile in comparison but that may be due to limited exposure as they are also a versatile/Continental breed which were originally bred to deal with furred game. With any of them you will probably have a dog which will at least want to be aggressive to mammals besides dogs but that can be dealt with through training and exposure. That is especially important if hunting on or near private land where a dog may run across someone's pet cat. I have been able to keep my versatile dogs from killing cats unless they run across them in the field. Then it is "game on" and I have to hustle if there is any chance for the cat to survive. I don't like it but they have a different mindset once they go into "hunt" mode. At least they behave in the yard and/or if at heel.

 

Once again...many thanks for taking the time for the very informative and very helpful reply. We have two cats in the household and the puppy would be exposed to them from day one. I don't know how that might extrapolate later on outside the house when encountering neighborhood cats and landowner's cats while hunting. I wouldn't care if it went after squirrels, chipmunks etc. as long as I could control the chase for obvious reasons, chief among them safety and trespassing.

I am listening to my instincts and initial preference and focusing largely on the SM. I need to research with owners about the tendency to "voice" when worked winged prey. That is something foreign to me with my past experience with my Brits. I guess it does not matter as long as it doesn't become any disadvantage in bringing birds to the bag, or maybe it could help, I just don't know. I always discouraged my Brits chasing rabbits when I was bird hunting. I am surmising it is a neutral issue. I had a buddy with tremendous Drathaars that would sometimes tongue on Pheasant (and kill vermin it came across; skunks, raccoons etc.). He had to watch out for barnyard cats. My Brits never had voice.

I hope to visit my first live SM locally real soon (making a call today) and will ask the right questions.

I will update when appropriate.

Thanks again!

 

Once again...many thanks for taking the time for the very informative and very helpful reply. We have two cats in the household and the puppy would be exposed to them from day one. I don't know how that might extrapolate later on outside the house when encountering neighborhood cats and landowner's cats while hunting. I wouldn't care if it went after squirrels, chipmunks etc. as long as I could control the chase for obvious reasons, chief among them safety and trespassing.

I am listening to my instincts and initial preference and focusing largely on the SM. I need to research with owners about the tendency to "voice" when worked winged prey. That is something foreign to me with my past experience with my Brits. I guess it does not matter as long as it doesn't become any disadvantage in bringing birds to the bag, or maybe it could help, I just don't know. I always discouraged my Brits chasing rabbits when I was bird hunting. I am surmising it is a neutral issue. I had a buddy with tremendous Drathaars that would sometimes tongue on Pheasant (and kill vermin it came across; skunks, raccoons etc.). He had to watch out for barnyard cats. My Brits never had voice.

I hope to visit my first live SM locally real soon (making a call today) and will ask the right questions.

I will update when appropriate.

Thanks again!

What did you end up with? Thoughts?

 

I have had a Small Munsterlander for the past six years. I use him on Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock here in Vermont. He is my first bird dog and was looking at Britts when I happened across the Small Munsterlander. I had a local professional trainer train me and the dog the first couple years. He is very aggressive and covers a lot of ground when hunting. I don't think pointing is the Small Munsterlander's strongest trait. I would say he points about 50 - 60% of the Ruffed Grouse he finds and bumps the remainder. Woodcock are no problem as they tend to hold much better than our grouse. I've learned his body language well enough that I know when he is close and have shot many of his "bumped" birds. He does tend to give a sharp "yip" when he bumps a bird. Another thing he tends to do is flag when he is on point for grouse, but does not when on point for woodcock. I know many people don't like the flagging, but I don't mind it.

He is a great retriever, and is great at finding downed birds. I shot two birds this pat year that I would have sworn I missed, but he found them. He also loves water, and I have shot a few puddle ducks on occasion and he retrieved them without hesitation.

He is also our house dog and pet and is great in the house. He will bring you a ball all night long as long as you keep throwing it to him, but once you say "no more", he drops the ball and goes to lay down. Loves to play Frisbee in the yard. We do have a cat, and he will playfully chase her around, but they both seem to enjoy it, and you will also find them sleeping together on the dog bed.

He's a little over 40 lbs, and the longer hair does tend to pick up birrs, but they are easy to brush out.

He will look for chipmunks and squirrels in the yard, but if there is a bird around, that's always his focus. I have shot rabbits while out bird hunting with him. He will find them, but just stands over them, and waits for me to come get them.

He's certainly not a brag dog, but I have a lot of fun with him, and he LOVES to hunt.

 

German Wirehaired Pointers for me.

Great all around dogs.

Gold

 

Beautiful dog you got there, mrbumbs.

Wonderful all around dog, just like my Rusty, our Golden Retriever, a very playful, extremely mild mannered family house dog but also a very serious hunter and retriever. He even points a pheasant or two on occasion, which I never encouraged. He just picked that up on his own. Our dogs may not win any field trials, but we certainly still can brag about them. {hs#

 

We now have 3 SM's all female - Rhode's Evie (6 years old), Gosch's Sheila (5 years old), and Treiber's Heidi (15 month). All are great dogs. After getting our first SM and making the swap from an awesome border collie who passed at 14 years, my wife refuses to consider any other breed except the SM.

They are lap dogs inside and can turn it on outside (Sheila is trying to rest her head on my mac as I type around her now...). We duck hunt - Southern bays and rivers from boats and blinds, quail hunt and dove hunt.

Our dogs do point with no training but i have bought a video called perfect start and perfect finish to make them even better trained hunters specifically backing. Sheila and Heidi passed their NA tests - Sheila got a prize 1 when we had no idea what we were doing and Heidi got a prize 3 after two attempts (she was not interested in the bumpers around the water, but jumped straight into 4 foot waves at the beach after the first test....).

Actually Heidi even jumped in the bay from my jon boat as I was placing some crab traps out today...so she swims when and where she wants.

We haven't had any horrid burr experiences but do keep some show sheen handy just in case (it comes from tractor supply).

If you haven't gotten a pup yet, then I would google gosch, treiber and hunting hills in no particular order and see who has some pups available. Solon Rhodes no longer breeds SM IIRC or I would whole heartedly recommend him too. I think that Sheila is our 'once in a lifetime dog' and she came from Gosch...it could be luck.

Here's some pics that I took at a Nebraska Navhda event held at Hunting Hill's, there's different versatile dogs so you can see some in action. If you explore my flickr you can see some SM pics and other dog events too if you want.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskEX3HSy

 

Hey grousegunner. Did you get a pup yet ? I'm a lab man but a close friend has had both a Munster and now a Griff and I've hunted over both. As a hunter I preferred his Munster but as an all around dog his griff is more affectionate, a general all around people dog as well as a great hunter. The munster seemed a little more aluff.

 

PUDELPOINTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Some years ago I was considering a Griffon, as I wanted a fairly close working versatile dog. I spoke with a breeder who advised that since I had always hunted over big-running Pointers and Setters I might feel a slower, closer Griffon was underfoot. He suggested I consider a German Wirehair Pointer. Two GWP's later, I am glad he did.

However, a disturbing trend I see in GWP breeders as the breed has become more popular over the past couple of decades is folks trying to turn them into big-running Pointers for the field trial circuit. Some of them even look more like Pointers than GWPs.

 

Have a 14 ½ year old Griff and a new 4 ½ month old pup. Absolutely love the breed... thoughts below.

1. Great family dogs and good with cats. Hardest issue with the homefront is housebreaking. They have small bladders and active kidneys - takes about 5mo. to get it down cold.

2. Very birdy and trainable, but as mentioned above they generally work very close.

3. They are more "sensitive" than GWP/GSP and require a gentler hand. As such, force fetch and other harsh training methods are not recommended.

 

You'll never hear any reason to not get one of those breeds from anyone who owns one. I've never owned a PP, or SM, but did have a GWP years ago, as well as a setter and on to several springers.

I'll not tell you not to get one, but remember, obscure breeds are obscure for a reason.

There are lots of breeds out there, and I'd suggest you Hedge your bet with a more popular breed. Especially if it's been some time since you've trained a dog. For what you've described I think a German Shorthaired Pointer would fit the bill.

 

I have hunted over all three, as well as GSPs , GWPs, and DDs. The Griffons may be a bit slower on average but the way that they hunt varies more with the individual dog.

 

SM on ducks today.

She wasn't perfect...but she had fun.

 

I have a 10 year old Griffon and he has been a great dog. Can't speak for the other two.

The Griffon showed great instincts at an early age and I was able to get him competent in the field with minimal training. Once we got serious on the training he really took it to another level.

As others have said, he does tend to stay closer on foot than other dogs I have hunted with but where I shoot that is not much of a problem.

I am not a waterfowl guy so I cannot speak to that. He has also been great at home, and we can even take him to visit my mother in law who has 4 cats and he just ignores them.

 

I have hunted over all these dogs and have really enjoyed them. Get whatever suits you and enjoy. Oh, and don't forget to post some pics. We love pics.

 

Some years ago I was considering a Griffon, as I wanted a fairly close working versatile dog. I spoke with a breeder who advised that since I had always hunted over big-running Pointers and Setters I might feel a slower, closer Griffon was underfoot. He suggested I consider a German Wirehair Pointer. Two GWP's later, I am glad he did.

However, a disturbing trend I see in GWP breeders as the breed has become more popular over the past couple of decades is folks trying to turn them into big-running Pointers for the field trial circuit. Some of them even look more like Pointers than GWPs.

As a gunner for our NAVHDA chapter, I shoot over SM, PP, GWP, WPG,GSPs, and several other breeds on a regular basis. The individual dogs vary more than the breed when it comes to their hunting. As far as GWPs gp, I went with a DD myself, and after three years, I have zero regrets.

 

Grouse Gunner,

Owning Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers here in Pa, having trained all 3 breeds and owned an incredible Small Munsterlander, which ever breed you pick, purchase direct from a reputable breeder. All are great gun dogs, my SM was a fantastic Grouse & Woodcock dog, wild Pheasants were no challenge to him at all.

One thing to remember if you purchase a SM, they mature slowly most times. Many owners do not understand them, and until they mature they have a tendency to flush rather than point, in fact in Germany the dogs are used in both manners. If you shoot the flushed bird, the dog will continue to flush the birds. Proper training makes these dogs incredible hunting machines. SM dogs are some of the best flush on command dogs I have ever trained. Fantastic winged bird finders and retrievers over both land and water.

I am currently thinking about adding a Poodlepointer to our Pine Creek Grouse Dog Kennel, just because I have never owned one.

One other note, none of these Versatile German dog breeds are obscure, here in the USA they are not as popular as some other gun dogs. The SM is the oldest registered hunting breed on record.

Good luck with choosing your new gun dog!

Pine Creek/Dave

Pine Creek Sampson our Male SM with one of his true double Grouse, taken with a 16 Gauge L.C. Smith Hammer Gun.

 

Deleted

 

Grouse Gunner,

If you have not purchase your gun dog yet and you are still interested in owning a SM dog contact Dean Rassmussen at Lonesome Dove kennels, he raises some serious SM dogs. If you want to see them hunt, Bird Dogs for Ever has film of Dean and his SM dogs on a wild pheasant hunt, you see some serious SM dog work in the film.

My SM Stud dog Pine Creek Sampson was bred to one of Dean's Lonesome Dove female's the pups were incredible. If Dean has no pups on the ground, he will be able to give you another small breeders name that is using his SM breed line.

A well trained SM is a fantastic bird dog, especially talented at producing Grouse, Woodcock and Pheasants. As my brother Kurt put it, Sampson could sneak up on a Grouses Ghost. We killed more Grouse over Sampson than any other gun dog we have ever owned, he was simply incredible. The only Grouse Scotch double I ever shot, Sampson flushed the Grouse on command to make happen.

Sampson worked Turkey just like he hunted Grouse, and I was able to shoot 2 Turkey at different times off his incredible set ups, as he flushed them on command into the air. He retrieved them both to hand, on my own property in Potter/Tioga, Pa.

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers

 

Put a deposit on a Pudelpointer. 7th in line. Praying momma cranks out at least 7....due in April.

 

Tvbh40a,

Enjoy your new pup when it comes!

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

 

New pup

 

View attachment 3572
New pup

After several years, what are your thoughts on pp? I’ve had springers and love them but now live in Utah with chucker and other mountain birds for which I think a pp would be a better fit. I also waterfowl hunt (I the my lab) but think a pp could also handle the conditions I waterfowl hunt in. Thanks for your input.

 

Tvbh40a,

Beautiful pup enjoy!

Pine Creek/Dave
Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers