see link
http://estore.beretta.com/en-eu/documen ... oke-tubes/

 

Thanks. That's what I needed.

So the European choke is actually .027 wider than Cylinder.
Wouldn't that simply act like cylinder with the shot starting to open just before the end of the barrel? I would think it would act like a slightly shorter barrel with cylinder chokes.

 

I really can't see any instance where a more open choke would be an asset in international skeet, where all your shots are going to be the same distance, or further away than american skeet, using lighter loads, shooting at targets that are smaller, lower profile, harder, and traveling faster. My assumption would be that pattern density would be pretty important.

ESPECIALLY with reverse doubles being shot now, shooting something looser than cylinder, and in all likelihood anything looser than IC would be foolish. I believe IC and LM are fairly popular now with reverse doubles.

Unless there's something about really fast 24 gram loads I'm missing.

 

deleted

 

The way I read the chart, International Skeet chokes have more constriction than American Skeet.

+1

 

The chart list the diameter in inches so the Int'l Skeet choke is a larger number than the diameter of the bore. So it has negative constriction and will act like a spreader choke.

 

You're right. I was reading the chart wrong, assuming it had to be the other way.

 

Just because Beretta calls something an International Skeet Choke or European skeet choke, that doesn't mean anybody actually uses it in international competition.

The names of chokes is meaningless. The numerical constriction from nominal bore is the only meaningful figure provided in most cases.

 

The names are basically for reference to those that don't do numbers. It compares to performance of other brands.
I've read a couple of places that a manufacturer tests the performance of a choke to determine it's name. Not actual but for example a browning skeet choke may be .007 to provide a particular size pattern at a set distance. Beretta may require .005 or wider to do the same thing.

 

The traditional Beretta Skeet Choke had a slight bell to it. That made for a sloppy fit with full length skeet tubes. To accommodate the American skeet market they also produce a skeet choke more like an American skeet choke to better handle tubes sets. Some of their chokes styles offer both skeet chokes. They needed a name for each. SK USA and SK EU are the names they are currently using.

 

International slightly more constriction due to harder targets/thicker shoulder and greater distance some of the targets are shot at.

The logic is sound. The facts do not agree.

 

Kim Rhode agrees with you, Pete. http://www.chuckhawks.com/visit_Kim_Rhode.htm

Kim: Right now I'm shooting fairly tight skeet chokes. It's hard for me to put a number on exactly the chokes that are in my top and bottom barrels because they have been modified. What I do is I mark exactly on the field where I'm breaking the target, then I go out and put a pattern board at that distance and shoot using the ammo that I'll be using in training and competition, and see what size my pattern actually is. I open up the chokes until the pattern is as big as it can be and still have an even pattern with no holes. In international skeet you'll find that some of your second targets on station 4 are quite long (it could be as long as 30 to 35 yards) and due to that factor, I'm shooting tighter chokes so no bird can fly through the pattern. I've done this for both trap and skeet and you'll find this works because you break the target almost in the same place every time. I also do this because I'm shooting an international load of 24 grams of shot which is a few pellets under 7/8 oz. This is less than a 20 gauge skeet load in a 12 gauge hull. It also moves at 1350 feet per second versus an American skeet 12 gauge load of 1-1/8 oz of shot moving at 1200 feet per second. Using this formula of choke patterning I've found it works well for me.

 

IMO Many top International guys are very sectretive about choke/pellet size so the true "facts" may be difficult to prove. As an example, the second target of a reverse double may be 35 yards away where it is broken. No 9's and a skeet choke don't work very well on an International target with thicker shoulder at that range but as I say, we may never know conclusively what many of the top guys use. Use what you have confidence in.

Just realized Skeetman already said this in an earlier post. I agree.

http://www.LeadTech.co

That may be true, but the chokes tubes Beretta sells in the USA and marked SK EU (Skeet European) have less constraint (negative constraint in fact) than their chokes marked SK USA (Skeet USA). It's mostly about the tube-set market.

 

The consideration is what a choke is marked and what it throws aren't the same thing. There is no constriction to talk about until you know your barrel's inside diameter. It is all nominal markings and dimensions, and the specific shell used is equally important.

Chokes have always been performance-based, not constriction-based, and surely not just designation-based.

 

Hello: The Beretta Optima Euro Skeet choke is a cylinder choke with a bell at the end. It patterns in between a cylinder and USA skeet beretta chokes. I have been told most International skeet shooters use either IC or LM constrictions in there guns. I am sure most chokes for them are custom orders to what they want. Thanks, Eric

 

Vincent Hancock who just won his 4th Olympic Gold Medal in Paris shoots IC / Mod. See Outdoor Life article about his shotguns. Vincent Hancock Made Olympic Skeet Shooting History with Beretta's DT11. Here’s a Closer Look at His Shotgun

Since he is about as good as it gets when it comes to International Skeet, I think we can say that pretty tight chokes are used for International Skeet. I.e. .010 and .020 constrictions vs. say .005 / .005 for American Skeet.

 

I really can't see any instance where a more open choke would be an asset in international skeet, where all your shots are going to be the same distance, or further away than american skeet, using lighter loads, shooting at targets that are smaller, lower profile, harder, and traveling faster. My assumption would be that pattern density would be pretty important.

Aren't Olympic targets 2mm larger than American targets?

ESPECIALLY with reverse doubles being shot now, shooting something looser than cylinder, and in all likelihood anything looser than IC would be foolish.

What choke is looser than cylinder?

 

Aren't Olympic targets 2mm larger than American targets?

ISSF spec is 110mm +/- 1mm. ATA and NSSA are 4 5/16" max diameter (109.5mm), so technically there's a bit of overlap, but generally 110mm vs 108mm. NSSA and ATA spec targets at 1 1/8" max, while ISSF is 25-26mm (1.024"). So .079" larger in diameter, but .1-.14" shorter in height.

What choke is looser than cylinder?

Beretta EU Skeet is larger in diameter than the bore, so looser than cylinder (cylinder being the same as bore diameter).

 

generally 110mm vs 108mm.

That's what I've always been told.

Beretta EU Skeet is larger in diameter than the bore, so looser than cylinder (cylinder being the same as bore diameter).

Any choke larger than Cylinder is not a choke and gives the same pattern as Cylinder.
Think of it this way: if you have a Cylinder choke, the end of the choke is larger (infinitely larger) than the barrel bore. It doesn't give you a looser pattern than Cylinder.
A choke larger than Cylinder has zero effect on the shot pattern, just as the end of the barrel (which a larger-than-bore choke tube is) has zero effect on the pattern.
A choke larger than Cylinder is just the end of the barrel bore.
In actuality, a choke tube larger than barrel bore just has the same effect on the pattern as a Cylinder choke tube would have in a barrel that is two inches shorter.
Pattern a choke-tubed gun with no choke tube in it (in effect a choke tube larger than barrel bore) and compare it to the same gun with a Cylinder choke tube in it. They'll be the same.
Makes sense?

 

Any choke larger than Cylinder is not a choke and gives the same pattern as Cylinder.
Think of it this way: if you have a Cylinder choke, the end of the choke is larger (infinitely larger) than the barrel bore. It doesn't give you a looser pattern than Cylinder.
A choke larger than Cylinder has zero effect on the shot pattern, just as the end of the barrel (which a larger-than-bore choke tube is) has zero effect on the pattern.
A choke larger than Cylinder is just the end of the barrel bore.
In actuality, a choke tube larger than barrel bore just has the same effect on the pattern as a Cylinder choke tube would have in a barrel that is two inches shorter.
Pattern a choke-tubed gun with no choke tube in it (in effect a choke tube larger than barrel bore) and compare it to the same gun with a Cylinder choke tube in it. They'll be the same.
Makes sense?

I'm not arguing any of that. I never said that it shoots looser, but if a choke ID is larger than cylinder (bore ID) then the choke itself is in fact looser than a cylinder.

 

The original 680 fixed choked Berettas skeet guns imported to USA had the international dimension skeet chokes. Those chokes made for a sloppy fit with tubes. I know because I had such a Beretta with tubes.

The Skeet USA chokes were developed for Beretta USA with a more traditional American skeet chokes to better accommodate skeet tubes. I don't believe any fixed choke Berettas came with Skeet USA chokes.

I had both. I could see no difference in performance at skeet targets. If I patterned them, it was only look-see patterning with no visual difference.

 

I think the constriction in the international Beretta skeet choke is internal to the choke and then the choke flares to the muzzle. When you start talking about very open chokes with constrictions 5 thousands or less than a lot of variables come into play. Stacked tolerances can play a part. The jug choke effect from the fit of the skirt to the bore can play a part. Sure, the constriction is the big factor but not the only factor for a particular gun-choke combination

 

From what I've found and heard from a Beretta rep the Optima HP constrictions are
Bore - .732
Cyl - .728
Skeet ITA - .727
Skeet USA - .726

So to me, for a Skeet target they are all the same. I use cyl over skeet usa and can't tell a difference. I doubt you'll see much if any difference on a pattern board with the .002 spread between the 3 chokes.