Mule Head,
No doubt about it Ohio has never really had a Grouse management program, long ago Ohio had a decent Grouse population in SE Ohio, unfortunately long gone now. My buddy Ken comes to Pa every year to hunt Grouse, you may want to consider investing in some property in Potter County, Pa if you wan to hunt Grouse. Ken even sold his SE Ohio property this past year, very few Grouse left on his property now. Pa is not that far way, we have lots of Ohio sportsman who have invested in cabins in our mountains for both Grouse hunting and trout fishing.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Kenny Graft Grouse hunting in Potter County, Pa. Ken owns the Shooting Stars gun shop in Ohio and is an avid Grouse & Woodcock hunter. He owns some of the finest Grouse guns you will ever see.

 

I’m 73 and stuck were I’m at. Actually if you live in SE Ohio there is no point owning a shotgun. The last 10-12 yrs the only shotgun shells I’ve burnt were slugs. Don’t need them anymore since we got rifle. I don’t do Turkey in Ohio because I don’t like to hunt them with a shotgun. No grouse, no rabbits no shotgunning. I’m selling mine out except for heirloom pieces. I insist a case and couple boxes of shells go with each purchase. Might start throwing in a new frog gig with each purchase.

 

When I was a teenager my Dad and I enjoyed hunting Grouse at Salt Fork State Park in Ohio. That would have been 50+ years ago.

 

No....there is not more early successional cover in Ohio today as there was in the past.....especially, on the Wayne.
There is indeed some cover, with food, as Ohio still has a paper mill...tho the mill also is not what once it was.

The decline probably began before 1970 but, it was clear then.....the excuse most heard was the grouse "cycle".
However, Ohio does not have a grouse "cycle" as experienced in the UGLs....of course, numbers fluctuated but there was never a comparable predictable sine wave of a "cycle".

Trap & transfer has not work well with ruffed grouse, in any state tried....bad idea.

Booming deer hunting and deer feeding did more to harm ruffed grouse re nest predators than either coyotes or turkey damage....but, recently increasing bobcats may well be another issue.
Raptors?...eh, some effect....waste of time to consider raptors tho.
Video-monitored grouse nests in the ACGRP across the central Appalachians showed no nest mortality from turkeys.
Could some damage occur since turkeys scratch at tree bases and next to logs..yes, but turkey hate is a non-stater or rather only one of dozens of reasons why the ruffed grouse have faced a population decline in Ohio steeper than a horse's face.

Short-stopping of geese has changed geese habits across the East.
I like to see eagles.
I had fellas rabbit hunting my farm in Washington County a few weeks ago, they did ok....the decline there tho is nowhere near the same as faced by Bonasa U...apples and oranges.

There was a momentary hope for improved cover creation thru Biomass potential a few years ago but Ohio's portion of the Marcellus/Utica boom nixed that forever.

The truth re ruffed grouse in Ohio is tied to aging and loss of cover.....creation of which is related to industry change downward and outfits like the Buckeye Forest council spitting BS.
The ODNR, who left the ACGRP early, are basically interested in the easy to manage game of deer and turkey...the money twins of today.
Ruffed grouse require too much in money and will to battle for better timber planning and the ODNR will never reduce deer from it's lofty perch.

I'm 70 + and shot my first grouse in 1964....many of us have lived the decline.
Old news....and sad news.
It will never reverse and probably should not....
To a large degree, the high bird numbers many of us experienced were artificial and an offshoot of simple Progress plus, the creation of the Wayne and it's reverting farmland in the SE.
Hold to the memories.

 

Regarding the kumquat, amongst apples and oranges, of released pheasant hunting in Ohio.....Ohio simply does not have the state land available with acceptable cover.
That and the population centers of Toledo, Cincy, Columbus and Cleveland pert well keep any state land hunting areas well-trodden.

Ohio once had a pheasant harvest approaching 1 million.....those days are also gone and while there are still wild pheasants around...getting on private land holding them is...understandably difficult.
Improvement tho re pheasants and even quail is possible...not so with the ruffed grouse, imho.

Such is Life today.

 

my grouse coverts were mainly Shawnee and Mead.. When Mead was in the process of selling, I contacted the DNR and asked why the state didn’t try to acquire the Mead holdings. I was told by a DNR Karen that Ohio already had more than enough public land. I have no use for the Ohio DNR or the RGS for that matter.

 

The RGS had a moment in Time when they could have used their rep to forestall the Leasing grab of Mead/Westvaco, or whatever is the name today, land once open to the Public.
They chose instead to focus upon banquet tables.
And so, more and more land came to see more and more people 💡💡💡, especially in late winter and early spring.
That...was tough on the bird, as you do not need to shoot a grouse, to kill it.

I still recall 3 trucks of "grouse" hunters skirmish-lining the February woods near one of the furnaces....they all had RGS stickers on the suburbans, et al and were from Cincy.

Future thought has never been an ODNR staple....in many ways that is no different than the go along to get along nature of DNRs but...it is reality here.
I will say that fellas like Swanson and Reynolds did what they could....and I know the state forestry chief of a few years ago.....he also did what his training told him was correct but....he faced a deck stacked against doing what was needed.

 

I remember those days of the February grouse mobs from Cincinnati skirmish lining the Tar Hollow Grouse Managment Areas! I hunted alone, and Shawnee was rugged enough to keep the mobs someway bay. I wish we had it back, but the spit hand keeps filling up first. I went to exactly one RGS “banquet” it was sickening. I listened to the unscratched hands tell the fawning ner do wells that “cover makes grouse!” No, grouse make grouse. This is a topic that hurts worse than it should.

 

Ohio is not the only state with upland bird problems. New Jersey use to have great hunting for wild grouse, quail and pheasants when I started hunting 50 years ago. The State closed the quail and grouse seasons a few years ago in hopes of restoring the populations. However, I am not optimistic that conditions exist for the populations to rebound and hunting was never the reason for the decline in bird populations. The wild pheasants are for the most part gone, but the State keeps the season open because there is little interest by the State in restoring the population since the pheasant is not a native bird.

 

My career took me to Columbus Ohio from 1970 to 1974. I hunted SE OH around Jackson and McArthur, primarily mine reclamation areas where there was decent cover. I also hunted the Wayne and Hocking but those areas even back then is were just so so. Bought a Brittany Spaniel from Ed Linscott in Athens. You had to have a good pair of legs to hunt SE OH.

 

Mister Ed's were in many back yards....in some regards it was a puppy mill but, the market was there in the shining times.

 

Remember Szabo’s newsletter?

 

Yes, I believe Grouse Tales is still being published....has to be nearing 5 decades.

I have seen all manner of hunting folks at rgs banquets and many of us saw that bloom fade early.....but, I am not much of a get-together guy so, may be a poor judge of some things.

Tho, I did work the very first NWTF turkey banquet held in Marietta...the Davis boys are friends.
For me, that group faded too. 🥴

 

if I get a chance I go to the Nashville nwtf show early on the first day to check out the call makers. As for banquets? Nope!

Yes, I believe Grouse Tales is still being published....has to be nearing 5 decades.

I have seen all manner of hunting folks at rgs banquets and many of us saw that bloom fade early.....but, I am not much of a get-together guy so, may be a poor judge of some things.

Tho, I did work the very first NWTF turkey banquet held in Marietta...the Davis boys are friends.
For me, that group faded too. 🥴

 

I understand...I just kinda got roped into helping on that banquet.
Live & Learn.

 

Pathetic excuse for game management at ODNR. Almighty dollar is destroying this past time. How about totally eliminating all out of state hunters?
Go south and see if you can find an Ohio license plate during deer season. It is all leased up by "outfitters form another state" charging thousands for a weeks hunt.
The almighty dollar has spoken, unless you are wealthy or own land yourself. Good luck attempting to find a place to get kids started hunting.

 

I’m not far from you in SW PA, I started hunting in 1998 (I just turned 37), and remember jumping grouse occasionally when we hunted “the mountains.” It’s been years since I saw one around here, and a few weeks ago I was squirrel hunting and jumped a pair of grouse, I think I was more excited about that than anything else I could have seen in the woods. Sad times, the woods were more fun when there were more grouse. Someone above said they’ve seen more eagles than grouse in recent years, same is true for me. I’ve also seen more bobcats, coyotes, and bears, I don’t blame them for the decline in grouse (although I do think the falcons and turkeys had a part in it, I just don’t know how large of a part that was), just making an observation.

 

I have lived in Brown County Ohio for the past 30 something years. When my family first moved here, there was decent quail and rabbit hunting. However, I could count on one hand the number of pheasants I have seen in the wild in all those years, 3, I have seen 3, and all in the neighboring field to a private pheasant hunting club. Turkeys are starting to populate, but still don't see them in my area very often. I haven't hunted rabbits in years as I didn't want to kill the few that I see around. I was always told the feral cat problem was the cause of so many of the rabbits and quail dying off. I have never seen a grouse, woodcock, rail, snipe, etc. We do have a decent dove population, but usually only one or two at a time.

A few years ago, I was getting into raising chickens, turkeys, and quail. I released several quail onto the family property, at one point, hoping they would populate, but never saw them again. It's really a shame. Hunting in my area is usually reduced to deer, squirrels, and doves.

 

All I ever see are deer, squirrels, turkeys, coyotes and rabbits(but only between the houses). Saw a pheasant once, but I think it was from a pay to play place. I asked a local person who had a bunch of pheasants if they were for hunting.….they were priced per bird.

I was rudely hushed and told I pay by the bird and there were additional charges for any birds harmed! Unreal!

 

I’m always sorry to read on this topic, but it comes up with my crew a lot. I’m blessed to live in grouse country and spend most of the fall chasing them with my vizslas.

I run into a lot of Ohio hunters. Most have been great, and I don’t allow myself to go down the “get out of my cover” rabbit hole.

As for Ohio cover and numbers, all my best. I’ll keep supporting RGS and BCHA as best I can, and hope that a little of that money makes it your way.

A long time ago my dad and I were just getting back to his vehicle after a morning in our favorite spot. Out of nowhere a hunter walked out and cheerfully told us he was separated from his friends, had been lost for hours, and had no idea how to get back to his rented cabin. This was way before cell phones and GPS. He made an impression because he had an H&H shotgun, which I had never seen before.

Anyway, we knew right where his rental was and gave him a ride in our Isuzu Trooper, which I suspect was several tiers below his usual transportation.

 

Brent,
We also have a lot of Ohio sportsman who come to Pa to Grouse & Woodcock hunt. Over all I have been very impressed with most of them. Not one time has a Ohio Grouse hunter followed us to any of our covert locations.
In fact we have had many stop by the log cabin after hunting all day and we have shared out dinners with them.
They usually have some good English Setter or Gordon Grouse dogs, that are talented and well mannered. Have not met one in the woods who is not a class act, in over 50 years. Some of these sportsman have done business with my Grouse hunting partner Ken Graft, purchasing guns and shells from him at his Shooting Stars gun shop over in Ohio.
Some of the Ohio Sportsman who owned nice camps here in Potter/Tioga, Pa have recently sold their places to NJ and Ny sportsman, I was sorry to see them retire from Grouse hunting, every one of them were good sportsman, however every one of them was up in their 80's and did not have sons to pass the camps on too. I hope the sportsman who purchased their log cabins are as good as the Ohio sportsman who sold them the camps. So far the NJ people have been very nice and ethical sportsman. The NY men are mostly Turkey hunters and real ethical sportsman also.
I will miss the old time Ohio Grouse hunters around our big rock fire pit for sure.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

 

Pink Creek Dave - thanks for sharing that. So glad to hear, and hope the new crews adopt the same ethics.

 

Brent,
I really do feel badly for the Ohio Sportsman, especially the Grouse hunters, most of them are real decent sportsman and their state government has really done no Grouse management to speak of. So the Ohio Grouse hunters spend as much time in the Pa woods as they can. Many in the past have purchased nice cabins and have been welcome in our mountains for a very long time. Some of these men have sons and daughters who will keep coming to hunt and Fly fish our mountains, it's close enough to Ohio for them to make a few trips every year and enjoy their log cabins, and shoot a few Grouse. The men who have sold out lately will be missed, we like good sportsman here in our mountains, and for many years the Ohio sportsman has added to our mountain community and been welcome. Recently my Grouse hunting buddy, Ken Graft sold his SE Ohio camp, I am hoping he will consider purchasing one of the nice log cabins in our area. Ken is about 15 years younger than I am, and when I pass he will need a place here in our mountains. My place has already been promised to another family. Land around here is becoming expensive now, many sportsman want it, because of our low taxes and the good hunting.

all the best,

Pine Creek/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Our little piece of heaven in Potter/Tioga, Pa. Notice how high the snow gets on the log siding each year, by the difference in the color of the logs on the front of the cabin.

 

I wish that there were still grouse here. I think I saw one when I was a child. I'm told that the area I'm in was teaming with Grouse at one time. I've seen a few wild pheasant, but very few. We are however overrun with deer and turkey. Ducks and Geese are plentiful and I'll be out dove hunting next week.

One of the advantages of spending most of the summer woodchuck hunting is that I'm out in the fields and get a very long look at what else is out and about in the area.

 

My dad kept 3 bird dogs, mostly English Setters. They were grouse dogs not generic bird dogs. They were better educated than my brother. Dad and his buddy would bust butt getting home from work during week to get in a couple hours before dark. That kept them in 10 mile of home, they didn’t limit
often but they seldom struck out. Saturdays were a different story, it was seldom they didn’t limit out. I wasn’t old enough to go until 1962 when 12. I got plenty of shots but only 1 Grouse that year.
No problem to find Grouse in southern Belmont & Monroe Cnty. I shot many while Squirrel or rabbit hunting. We had it all. Dad had connections up around Minerva, New Franklin area on private property for pheasant.
I had leased camp on creek in Monroe Cnty. & built hunting camp in southern Monroe county. We had all the game except Pheasant right in back yard, Smallmouth in the creek, what more could you ask for? Things started going downhill in 90s when Coyotes got established. It was long before the small animals disappeared. It was nothing to shoot several hundred groundhogs, every year without putting a dent in them. The Grouse were pretty well on their way to extinction

before introduction of Coyote. So those that blame Grouse situation on coyotes are full of it. The Grouse situation was already in decline before Turkey populations were well established. That’s another myth and now Turkey population is way down from what it was 20yr ago. Decreasing cover? That’s another myth in most areas around here. Especially Monroe Cnty. It’s a ghost town, no industry except for fracking and that too is a latecomer in the big picture. Some of the Lazy Boy Brigade even blames global warming. My best guess is the winters of 1977-1978. Two years in a row we had severe ice storms.
That hit them hard and if there was some other natural hit on them we are not aware of , it may be the answer. I have no faith in Ohio DNR. The only thing they are good for is stocking fish & game in State areas near the cities.

 

Loss and change of cover is no myth in Ohio, not in the slightest......succession is not the grouse's friend forever....without man's hand.

In areas with the Wayne NF, like Monroe County, the Wayne boomed the ruffed grouse thru purchases and then that succession.
It takes awhile for some ground to revert, still revert it does....but it never stops and with limited to zero appreciable cutting on the Wayne.....the grouse declined.
Some 15 years ago the ES % on the Wayne was sub 3%, only God knows what it is now....that, ain't good but for squirrels, deer and turkey ...all with a much different life story and blessings in survival than Bonasa U.

However, once the grouse reaches a tipping point then all the lesser factors of decline begin to add their heavy hand....which is what led to today.
Nest predators, weather during hatch and post hatch 30 days or so, habitat issues...even raptors, coyotes, bobcats, human bird hunters, deer hunters and deer feeders, that stupid February season and, imo, degrees of health problems entered...those and more all hurt the bird.

'77' slammed the quail.....less of an issue for ruffed grouse....just the way it was.
Today, rare pockets remain...waiting.
Sadly, Ohio is full of pickpockets who have no clue what once was....or what their decisions affect.

The ODNR is like all dnrs...a political entity which likes easy work....I can accept less than perfect from them for the enormity of their job but....I never will forgive them from bugging out of the ACGRP early.
Like the RGS...the ODNR gives up very easily.
The sad truth tho is better actions on their part or ours would only slow the decline in Ohio....nothing more was ever possible.

 

It all comes down to habitat. Outside of paper land there isn’t vast tracts of managed forest in that part of the country.
Grouse are very fickle when it comes to habitat. Lots of immature forest that borders both mature forests and small clearings. Without vast tracts of that kind of land, grouse don’t do well.
Predation can have an impact short term but when it starts impacting long term population numbers it’s generally a symptom and not a root cause.