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I don't see where the shotgun was responsible at all. All primers were all strongly hit. Any primer hit that hard should go off. Any failure rate difference between those two shotguns, with those primer strikes, looks to be just that the Browning got more shells with more bad primers.

A few years back I had a flat of Remington Gun Clubs that were loaded with bad primers. My failure rate was almost 50% with them and the primers were well dimpled. Remington said that they had a batch of bad primers and thought they had gotten them in QC but some must have gotten thru. Anyway, they replaced the flat. Either some of those primers went bad in storage and the conditions they encountered, or, they were bad from the start with a mfg defect.

I've shot some primed Cheddite .410 hulls that were just barely dimpled (damn hard primers) but yet fired in my 725. Shells loaded with Win 209 primers look like those in the pictures.
 
Looking at the strike marks of the Browning shows that the firing pin on at least one barrel is already damaged from pierced primers.
The hits are fine, just primer failures.
 
Looking at the strike marks of the Browning shows that the firing pin on at least one barrel is already damaged from pierced primers.
The hits are fine, just primer failures.
I agree completely.
All the failures in the Browning were in the bottom barrel so those shown are all that one barrel.
I think MD's suspicion of a bad batch of primers is correct. I also think your suspicion of rim thickness variations in the AA hulls is also correct, given the double rate of failure.
I only have 500 more of the W209's and they were free, but I will not load them. I don't know how many more MD has, but I doubt he will load them either.

This has been a fun, eye opening experiment.

Image
 
Discussion starter · #84 ·
I think we proved what I think I already knew. These primers need to go in the trash!

I keep track of what I was shooting. I shot 77 shells with the suspect primers. I had 8 FTF's, in both barrels of my Browning 725, and the CZ sporter I was shooting, both barrels Failures were in both GC's and AA's. That's about 10% failures

I also shot almost 100 shells with cheddite primers with GC's and AA hulls, some of the AA's has previously failed with this lot of W209's. No failures at all with Cheddites
 
Discussion starter · #85 ·
I agree completely.
All the failures in the Browning were in the bottom barrel so those shown are all that one barrel.
I think MD's suspicion of a bad batch of primers is correct. I also think your suspicion of rim thickness variations in the AA hulls is also correct, given the double rate of failure.
I only have 500 more of the W209's and they were free, but I will not load them. I don't know how many more MD has, but I doubt he will load them either.

This has been a fun, eye opening experiment.
I have 3900 of these remaining. We have basically experienced FTF with two different brands of hulls, two different shooters and reloaders, 7 different shotguns (Brownings, CZ's and Tristars), one of which is a semi-auto. The 8th gun (Perazzi) had no failures which I cannot explain.

No failures in any of the above guns when shooting cheddite primers in the same hulls. I can also verify that those same hulls have had no failures when shooting Fiocchi or W209's from another batch.

So... "into the trash they go!"

Its time to get back to figuring out my main problem, which is why I miss the clay that is seemingly hanging in the air only 20 yards in front of me!
 
Don't forget a Zoli...
MD, can you get some close up pictures of some of the failed primers?
Just want to see if there are potential firing pin issues. My Browning shows signs after only 500 shells.
 
BTW, if anyone wants to know, we did try some of the failures in other guns, barrels...particularly the AA hulls.
 
Discussion starter · #89 ·
Don't forget a Zoli...
MD, can you get some close up pictures of some of the failed primers?
Just want to see if there are potential firing pin issues. My Browning shows signs after only 500 shells.
Here is a comparison of the good vs the bad. Looks like light strikes. Or "lighter" strikes. What's not known is if these are sufficient to ignite the primer. It was good enough for 90% of the w209's and 100% of the cheddites. My cheddites are showing signs for piercing.

Image
 
The "Good" strikes do look harder than the "FTF" strikes.
Don't know if the "FTF" strikes are too light, I will let the experts determine that...
 
I think those 'light' hits are plenty to make a primer go bang. The difference in the depth is due to the headspace in the chamber. When a shell fires it is driven back to the breech face and makes the primer indent deeper.
 
Discussion starter · #92 ·
I think those 'light' hits are plenty to make a primer go bang. The difference in the depth is due to the headspace in the chamber. When a shell fires it is driven back to the breech face and makes the primer indent deeper.
This makes total sense and would explain the visual differences
 
Is that what I'm seeing in the middle of the dimples left by the firing pin? Abrasion?
NO! That is where the material in the strike surface of the primer was extruded into the damaged spot in the firing pin by the Chamber Pressure of the shell on ignition.
 
NO! That is where the material in the strike surface of the primer was extruded into the damaged spot in the firing pin by the Chamber Pressure of the shell on ignition.
But these are shells that didn't go BANG, therefore no chamber pressure or any other force other than the pin strike.
 
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True, but the metal still contours to the surface of the pin that struck it. It just becomes deeper when there is the pressure from ignition shoving it all back to the breech face.
 
I expected the pin to damaged using Cheddite primers, But I didn't expect it to look like this after only 500 rounds (before the test).

View attachment 43994
Yup, I had a 725 that did the exact same thing… After a huge battle with experimenting with different pins and pin lengths / hardening / springs / blaming primers and the Easter bunny.. I finally sold the problem off… I really wanted to like that gun but it ruined the mental side of the sport not being able to trust it.. Reminded me of buying a boat……..
 
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