I understand that scorekeepers do add an expense to reg. events. However, I believe most reg. shooters would be willing to pay the extra 5-10$. (if not no biggie) I just think that if a trap breaks down, targets need reloaded, keeping score, pulling targets, keeping rotations moving etc. it is the right thing to do to have a scorekeeper on site. I am a very honest shooter, and I can tell you its not fun telling a squad mate "loss pair" when he or she thinks they broke the pair and want to argue the point. It can change the mood of the squad. In a sanctioned event I don't know of other organization that says, IT IS OKAY TO NOT HAVE A JUDGE.
eyeonbird
Scorekeepers are typically unpaid at local monthly shoots and do not load machines, fix machines or even clean up hulls; most of these folks are high school kids who got 5 minutes of training and do not know the rules. Sorry if your friends argue; we are harder on our own than any kid and call it fair and square. With a squad of five*, there are at least 3 sets of eyes besides the shooter watching everything.
*stupid autocorrect
*stupid autocorrect
Bill,
I remember some of the first SYO I attended (a long time ago, as most had trappers when we started!) As they put a squad together, someone was asked to be "the JUDGE".
And according to the rules (of course NSCA "rules" are merely suggestions waiting to be changed!) at every score your own, there should be an appointed "Field judge" on every squad!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Field Judge (Referee)-An individual, who has integrity
and a knowledge of NSCA Rules, assigned by the Shoot Officials to enforce the rules and score targets at any NSCA
event. This individual can be the Chief Referee, a certified
referee or any individual appointed by the Shoot Official
(s).
a. Field Judges will be required at each station, in sufficient
number, to competently enforce all rules for the
shooter, as well as to score the attempts accurately.
b. Numbers and positions for Field Judges shall be determined
by the Shoot Officials.
I remember some of the first SYO I attended (a long time ago, as most had trappers when we started!) As they put a squad together, someone was asked to be "the JUDGE".
And according to the rules (of course NSCA "rules" are merely suggestions waiting to be changed!) at every score your own, there should be an appointed "Field judge" on every squad!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Field Judge (Referee)-An individual, who has integrity
and a knowledge of NSCA Rules, assigned by the Shoot Officials to enforce the rules and score targets at any NSCA
event. This individual can be the Chief Referee, a certified
referee or any individual appointed by the Shoot Official
(s).
a. Field Judges will be required at each station, in sufficient
number, to competently enforce all rules for the
shooter, as well as to score the attempts accurately.
b. Numbers and positions for Field Judges shall be determined
by the Shoot Officials.
What he said. ^^^^^oneounceload said:
Nobody wants the cost of sporting clays to go up.
Squad scoring works very every place I shoot at.
What he said. 95% of the people who own sporting clay clubs don't want the trappers working on the traps for safety reasons.
Most of the trappers don't know anything about working on traps
Bill,
At last glance there are 29 NSCA sporting clays shoots scheduled in Colorado next year. If things go like they have in the past, the first time there will be a scorekeeper will be for the Main event at the state shoot in September. The other shoots will offer the high quality targets and competitive shooting befitting an NSCA shoot, but not scorekeepers. Club owners certainly do cite the extra expense, but what they really don't want is the hassle of rounding up people, getting them there on time, training them, and then dealing with additional glitches like the lack of raingear or sunblock or whatever. Club staff I've talked to said that they simply couldn't or wouldn't do registered shoots if they were required to provide scorekeepers.
I've been to many of these shoots and they always seem to run smoothly. Club staff rove the course during the shoot, keeping traps fixed and filled. I've never heard intra-squad bickering over a call and I've never heard any complaints about cheating. These shoots are attended by all classes of shooters, from national caliber Masters down to E class newbies, and most seem to find it a worthwhile experience.
The point is that without these shoots there would be little available in the way of registered shooting in my state, and I suspect it is similar other places. I can't believe anybody really wants that. I agree that it would be better to have scorekeepers if it was feasible and I certainly support some of the ideas I've seen in other threads for improving the classification system, but I think the bottom line is that squad-scored NSCA shoots are here to stay, and we should probably just make our peace with that and try to make them work as well as they can.
As for the last sentence of your post, who gives a hoot? It's our sport (or game or whatever) and we have to make it work for us.
At last glance there are 29 NSCA sporting clays shoots scheduled in Colorado next year. If things go like they have in the past, the first time there will be a scorekeeper will be for the Main event at the state shoot in September. The other shoots will offer the high quality targets and competitive shooting befitting an NSCA shoot, but not scorekeepers. Club owners certainly do cite the extra expense, but what they really don't want is the hassle of rounding up people, getting them there on time, training them, and then dealing with additional glitches like the lack of raingear or sunblock or whatever. Club staff I've talked to said that they simply couldn't or wouldn't do registered shoots if they were required to provide scorekeepers.
I've been to many of these shoots and they always seem to run smoothly. Club staff rove the course during the shoot, keeping traps fixed and filled. I've never heard intra-squad bickering over a call and I've never heard any complaints about cheating. These shoots are attended by all classes of shooters, from national caliber Masters down to E class newbies, and most seem to find it a worthwhile experience.
The point is that without these shoots there would be little available in the way of registered shooting in my state, and I suspect it is similar other places. I can't believe anybody really wants that. I agree that it would be better to have scorekeepers if it was feasible and I certainly support some of the ideas I've seen in other threads for improving the classification system, but I think the bottom line is that squad-scored NSCA shoots are here to stay, and we should probably just make our peace with that and try to make them work as well as they can.
As for the last sentence of your post, who gives a hoot? It's our sport (or game or whatever) and we have to make it work for us.
Ha let me amend my statement. I just think that if a trap breaks down, targets need reloaded, keeping score, pulling targets, keeping rotations moving etc. it is the right thing to do to have a scorekeeper on site that way they can contact the right club person to address the problem if needed. Sorry for the misinterpretation.
Anybody who shoots sporting clays should have the club house phone number in their phone for the times when there is a problem.eyeonbird said:
Shooters should never work on traps.
I have been to many shoots where there was problem with the trap and the trapper called someone. When someone got there they called someone else. :lol:
Squad scored events are the norm in most parts of the country and really seem to work just fine. I would rather be scored by a squad of experienced shooters than someone off the street with limited or no exposure to the game.
the rare occasions (championships) where I shoot with trapper / scorers, there are several stations that it goes poorly and that can be pretty distracting to the participant. Some of the trappers are excellent and others.....not so much.
mandating use of trappers would be a bad play and I hope NSCA doesn't go in that direction.
the rare occasions (championships) where I shoot with trapper / scorers, there are several stations that it goes poorly and that can be pretty distracting to the participant. Some of the trappers are excellent and others.....not so much.
mandating use of trappers would be a bad play and I hope NSCA doesn't go in that direction.
Besides folks roving around, most clubs also have their telephone number posted on every stand - usually for the weekday casual shooters - but help is always quick to respond.eyeonbird said:
Not having scorekeepers enhances profits for the clubs and keeps prices for shoots lower. Some shooters find a need to be in control and don't care for scorekeepers. Many shooters prefer scorekeepers because they really don't want to be pushing buttons and marking scorecards during a shoot. I can say that if they are going to be the norm they shouldn't be used for awards or punches. Maybe the time has come to classify shoots. If the game is to have any chance to become a truly competitive sport instead of a game it needs credibility. And if it's just for fun and means nothing why do shooters want punches and awards for results of SYO? Why does trap and skeet use scorekeepers in competition? Next time you go to a shoot with scorekeepers ask management to consider SYO. I think you know the answer.
You have about three levels of shoots being put on today. SYO being the lowest. Shooters are handed a scorecard and controller and have at it for SYO. Hardly the same as a regional,state or big blast.
You have about three levels of shoots being put on today. SYO being the lowest. Shooters are handed a scorecard and controller and have at it for SYO. Hardly the same as a regional,state or big blast.
To me there's a big difference in having well trained competent scorekeepers/pullers vs just some body sitting in a chair. Since you propose SYO shouldn't count for punches/awards how will a shooter know what they are getting at a shoot with trappers?
Will they need to be certified like in Fitasc and how/who will do the certification ? And who covers the cost of that ?
I've experienced both kinds in my in limited experience and would rather have a SYO vs folks who may mean well scoring but don't really have a clue whats going on besides pushing a button and writing on a score card(and some times the wrong card)
I'm sure there are many like myself who don't really have the time/funds to travel a lot to just attend State/Regional/Big Blast only, so if we aren't able to do that the way your posts come across(to me anyway) is basically there's no need for us to shoot Registered. :?
Will they need to be certified like in Fitasc and how/who will do the certification ? And who covers the cost of that ?
I've experienced both kinds in my in limited experience and would rather have a SYO vs folks who may mean well scoring but don't really have a clue whats going on besides pushing a button and writing on a score card(and some times the wrong card)
I'm sure there are many like myself who don't really have the time/funds to travel a lot to just attend State/Regional/Big Blast only, so if we aren't able to do that the way your posts come across(to me anyway) is basically there's no need for us to shoot Registered. :?
How many shoots have you been to that have well trained competent scorekeepers/pullers?
I have been to US OPENs where the trappers didn't know the difference between X and O!
If anybody thinks for one minute that this will ever be anything more than an expensive sport they are WRONG!
It costs way to much to do it.
I have been to US OPENs where the trappers didn't know the difference between X and O!
If anybody thinks for one minute that this will ever be anything more than an expensive sport they are WRONG!
It costs way to much to do it.
If this was directed to me Terry at the '14 SC Regional at Caney the trappers/scorekeepers were trained by Jeff Foster and they did an outstanding job and for me personally the best I've attended to this date.I'm sure there have been others across the country just relaying my experience.Been to a couple of others where it was hit/miss on each station on how it went.KRIEGHOFFK80 said:
You've would have a much better overall picture with all the places you've been to than myself.
It isn't that you can't find competent trappers. The problem is that most (not all) clubs don't want to find, pay and train competent trappers plus retain them. It's just easier to turn shooters loose and hope for the best. I've shot at Backwoods a lot. Rick has trappers who I know by name and have been working for him a long time. They are very competent and quite sure they are well compensated. This is also the case at M&M. Like I said, you have real shoots and then you have SYO. All shoots aren't created alike.
All shoots aren't created alike.
And not all shoots are priced the same.
I have always liked shooting sub gauges.
Some clubs charge $60 for 50 target sub gauges while other clubs charge $35 for the same 50 targets.
When it is all said and done you win the same thing.
Now that I am on a fixed income the $60 sub gauge events are a thing of the past.
And not all shoots are priced the same.
I have always liked shooting sub gauges.
Some clubs charge $60 for 50 target sub gauges while other clubs charge $35 for the same 50 targets.
When it is all said and done you win the same thing.
Now that I am on a fixed income the $60 sub gauge events are a thing of the past.
Correct, you get what you pay for. If you really read the rules SYO was never intended to be used. It is allowed because of $$$. Do you really think the NSCA cares about 50 entrant Fun Shoots and what goes on? Of course not, they only care about the target tax. Makes me laugh, guys show up with 50K SUV's, 12K carts and 15K guns and complain about paying $10.00 extra for trappers.
if it's $10 more and the trappers are all trained, know the rules inside and out and do the job well, I have no issue with it.deadapair said:
my limited exposure to trapper / scorers has not been all that positive and certainly hasn't made my experience at those shoot's more enjoyable.
Experienced shooters are far superior to score a shoot than poorly trained and inexperienced people off the street.
Most trappers are young kids, most of whom don't even shoot. They are there because of a group they belong to (like ROTC) or similar and just want to get through their Saturday of civic participation.
I just do not see this rampant cheating that some allege is a constant ongoing thing. Just about everyone knows the other shooters in their class and what to expect from them; anything so out of the norm is easily spotted.
I just do not see this rampant cheating that some allege is a constant ongoing thing. Just about everyone knows the other shooters in their class and what to expect from them; anything so out of the norm is easily spotted.
If you want this sport to have an ounce of legitimacy , you/I/all of us will have to pay for trappers. No other sport has SYO.
Or let it be a game/hobby and stop carping.
Or let it be a game/hobby and stop carping.
You don't see rampant cheating because there isn't any.
I get so tired of these people who go on and on about people cheating.
They need to start shooting with new people at new places.
Here is an idea that will help. When you leave the house to go to a shoot don't think "Well I wonder how will be cheating today."
Walk out the door thinking "Wow I am going to have a great time today shooting with my friends."
I get so tired of these people who go on and on about people cheating.
They need to start shooting with new people at new places.
Here is an idea that will help. When you leave the house to go to a shoot don't think "Well I wonder how will be cheating today."
Walk out the door thinking "Wow I am going to have a great time today shooting with my friends."
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