I collect old semi auto duck guns and like to take them duck hunting and in the past have used many thousands of rounds of steel shot. I typically open the chokes up to light modified or modify them with screw in tru -chokes and will never fire steel through a choke tighter than modified I also limit most to #2 shot but have shot bb’s from a couple newer 80’s 3” guns. I haven’t had any damage to any of these guns including Belgian A-5’s, Japanese A-5’s, S&W water Fowlers ect…. First off I think the real culprit for damaged barrels was bad early steel shot with improper wads. On top of that water fowl guns were almost all full choked and many were tight full chokes. Now I wouldn’t run hyper velocity steel through them, I have a load that shoots 475gr of steel with the very excellent lbc43 wad at 1400-1450fps that I suspect is fairly moderate pressure wise and is what I have used in my guns. Were barrels built in the 1920’s through the 1980’s sub-standard somehow? Weren’t they proofed with the same pressures we proof 2.75” shells at today? The quality of some of these barrels certainly seems better than modern made ones. Steel shot should never touch your bore anyways with proper steel shot wads. I also only use annealed shot. Of course store bought shells who knows about the shot hardness. Were bore sizes tighter back when they used fiber wads, could this be an issue with pre-war models? I’m just trying to wrap my head around why steel has been painted in such a poor light. In England they fire steel shot (standard steel loads) in many fine old doubles with very thin barrels, I would not do that personally, but they do. I’m not recommending anyone else shoot steel through guns not made for it and you should follow what your gun manufacturer recommends but this is my experience with my guns. What say you? Was I just lucky? Have any of y’all damaged guns with modern steel shot under bb size with chokes more open than modified? I will tell y’all when they first mandated steel shot, I bulged my Remington 870’s barrel right behind the choke so I’m not a steel shot damage denier, it happened a lot in the early days I just wonder how much of it was the guns and if that damage would happen now with modern steel loading techniques.
Texcl2
I have a mid-70s vintage Franchi 48A 3" magnum with original 32" full choke barrel that I bought specifically to shoot steel. It has had a lot of Kent 1-3/8 oz steel BBs through it with no issues. I will say that the barrel walls are thicker than on some guns.
I think you understand the situation well. Since tungsten, I no longer shoot steel, but I have never seen any damage except in the choke area. All my waterfowl guns are/were equipped with steel rated choke tubes. On SxSs I got extended tubes with the constriction beyond the muzzle. Never an issue. I tend to shoot IM for waterfowl with size 3 or bigger shot and Full with smaller. I like to watch them fall.
I’ve read that article, they are vague about vintage guns they just say they weren’t built for steel shot. No kidding, nothing before the 1990’s was made for steel shot because it really didn’t exist until it was mandated lol. Is there a reference that states the barrels were softer at some point them harder later? I’ve always wondered about this too because there were no steel rated guns when steel shot came out.
Where did you come up with that?
I hear it all the time: "I've been using XXX for years with steel and haven't had a problem!" That's a little late in the day to be asking the question. There are a goodly number of old shotguns out there with bulged barrels, but slightly bulged that you can't measure by eyeball.
The most common damage is to the forcing cone, not the choke.
Krupp “Nirosta” was patented in 1912 - NIchtROstender STAhl 21% Chromium / 7% Nickel
as was Bohler “Antinit” (Rostfrei Laufstahl chrome-molybdenum-vanadium)
Winchester Nickel Steel (AISI 2340) was used on the Model 12 Repeating Shotgun from introduction until 1926
Winchester Proof Steel (AISI 4135 Chrome Molybdenum alloy) was introduced in 1931 for the Model 21 and in 1932 for the Model 12.
AISI 4140 was introduced for automobile axles in the 1920s, but was not in general used for shotgun barrels until post-WWII, and by many makers not until the steel shot mandate.
These steels were not routinely used on U.S. maker's autoloaders.
Remington’s experiment with AISI 1140 Modified (with manganese sulfide) did not work out so well.
The steel loads used on vintage doubles in England are standard velocity and (mostly) British No. 7 shot, with modern steel compatible shotcups, and appropriate chokes.
And early on steel did this to vintage double's barrels; mostly AISI 1030 - 1040 carbon Steel, possibly rephosphorized
![Image]()
as was Bohler “Antinit” (Rostfrei Laufstahl chrome-molybdenum-vanadium)
Winchester Nickel Steel (AISI 2340) was used on the Model 12 Repeating Shotgun from introduction until 1926
Winchester Proof Steel (AISI 4135 Chrome Molybdenum alloy) was introduced in 1931 for the Model 21 and in 1932 for the Model 12.
AISI 4140 was introduced for automobile axles in the 1920s, but was not in general used for shotgun barrels until post-WWII, and by many makers not until the steel shot mandate.
These steels were not routinely used on U.S. maker's autoloaders.
Remington’s experiment with AISI 1140 Modified (with manganese sulfide) did not work out so well.
The steel loads used on vintage doubles in England are standard velocity and (mostly) British No. 7 shot, with modern steel compatible shotcups, and appropriate chokes.
And early on steel did this to vintage double's barrels; mostly AISI 1030 - 1040 carbon Steel, possibly rephosphorized
Scroll down about 2/3 here and there is a hardness comparison chart
docs.google.com
Barrel Strength & Composition
Vintage Steel Barrel Strength & Composition “The Gun Foundry” John Ferguson Weir 1907 Sears, Roebuck & Co. Catalogue No. 116 courtesy of Gary Rennles “Gun barrels can only burst by having some obstruction in the barrel or by overloading with Nitro powder. Barrels are made to withstand a...
docs.google.com
I’ve not seen any forcing cone damage on my guns nor are the chokes bulged. I will say I usually don’t use collector grade guns or if I do as in the case of the Belgian A-5’s I use a sacrificial barrel and keep the original in the safe. I’m getting more into Remington model 11’s and am planning to turn my latest one into a duck gun. I will open the choke to LM (favorite choke) and run bismuth in it as long as the prices stay reasonable but if they get too high I’m not sure steel shot under #2 isn’t out of the question. My only reservation is it’s a late 20’s model and really beautiful, I’m worried it will get pretty beat up in the marsh. My Japanese mag 12 takes a beating in the boat. I put 500 rounds of steel through my mag 12 this year so far, it started its life as a fixed full choke gun but had Mike Orlen install tru choke tubes in it and run it with mainly with a LM carlsons tube. The throat is perfect on it and no bulges so far.
Steel shot regulations have been in effect and growing in scope since 1976 . . . a whopping 46 years by now. In order to be called safe, it has to be proven safe. No one could be expected to perform extensive testing on old guns that were never designed or tested for use with steel shot. Many models are discontinued, many manufacturers themselves are long gone.
Untested just means untested. To ammo manufacturers, it naturally means "you're on your own" and regardless, you can buy yourself a new barrel for a non-steel approved shotgun. "Shooting UK" frowns on it: Steel shot - will my shotgun be safe with steel shot cartridges? .
So does BASC: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...s/2017/10/Steel-Shot-what-you-need-to-know-from-a-safety-point-of-view-2017.pdf .
However, it is also claimed to be kinda-sorta okay: Turns Out, It’s OK to Shoot Steel Through Old Shotguns (Sort of) .
BUT Both Barrels: busting the steel myths - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation --
Bill Harriman
Bill Harriman is a nationally recognised expert in firearms, ballistics and related matters. Before joining BASC in 1991, he worked for 10 years for a firm of auctioneers specialising in arms, armour and militaria. He is regularly seen on television as part of the team of experts on the BBC’s Antiques Roadshow programme.
Bill Harriman says not so, in fact you can probably shoot steel through a Full (..040) choke.
The gun I decided to use was a 12 bore Basque boxlock non-ejector, made in the 1980s.
These are its vital statistics.
![Image]()
Untested just means untested. To ammo manufacturers, it naturally means "you're on your own" and regardless, you can buy yourself a new barrel for a non-steel approved shotgun. "Shooting UK" frowns on it: Steel shot - will my shotgun be safe with steel shot cartridges? .
So does BASC: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...s/2017/10/Steel-Shot-what-you-need-to-know-from-a-safety-point-of-view-2017.pdf .
However, it is also claimed to be kinda-sorta okay: Turns Out, It’s OK to Shoot Steel Through Old Shotguns (Sort of) .
BUT Both Barrels: busting the steel myths - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation --
Bill Harriman
Bill Harriman is a nationally recognised expert in firearms, ballistics and related matters. Before joining BASC in 1991, he worked for 10 years for a firm of auctioneers specialising in arms, armour and militaria. He is regularly seen on television as part of the team of experts on the BBC’s Antiques Roadshow programme.
Bill Harriman says not so, in fact you can probably shoot steel through a Full (..040) choke.
The gun I decided to use was a 12 bore Basque boxlock non-ejector, made in the 1980s.
These are its vital statistics.
- Bore diameter at proof 18.5mm (.728″)
- Actual bore diameter .726″ (14 inches from the breech)
- Wall thickness .042″ (14 inches from the breech)
- Choke constriction .040″
Standard 12 Bore Steel Shot Cartridges
Extracted from official BASC website: www.basc.org.uk
These cartridges, if they are to be fired from standard proof shotguns (i.e. those proved to 960 bar (transducer) or, previously, 850 bar (crusher)), or magnum proof shotguns (i.e. those proved to 1370 bar (transducer) or, previously, 1200 bar (crusher)) must not exceed the maximum admissible service pressure of 74 MPa (new units megapascals, in place of the old 740 bar) specified by the CIP and measured by means of a piezo-electric transducer.
2.1 The steel shot diameter must be 3.25 mm (i.e. equal to or less than 3.25 mm, which is smaller than English no. 3).
2.2 The mean velocity, measured at a point 2.50 m from the muzzle, must be 400 m/s (around 1,300 ft/s).This velocity is to be measured using a cylindrical barrel and the mean value of a series of 10 shots.
2.3 The momentum must be: Mo = mV ? 12 Ns. (Momentum = mass of shot x its velocity, measured in Newton-seconds (!). It is calculated by multiplying the weight of shot load (in kgs) by the velocity (at 2.5 m) in m/s. So, a 30 g load at 385 m/s has a momentum of 0.030 x 385 = 11.55 Ns i.e. just under the 12.0 Ns limit). See Endnote.
"Standard Steel Shot Loads are fine to use with barrels proofed for Lead Shot, which is where the confusion is when it comes to Steel Shot."
Extracted from official BASC website: www.basc.org.uk
These cartridges, if they are to be fired from standard proof shotguns (i.e. those proved to 960 bar (transducer) or, previously, 850 bar (crusher)), or magnum proof shotguns (i.e. those proved to 1370 bar (transducer) or, previously, 1200 bar (crusher)) must not exceed the maximum admissible service pressure of 74 MPa (new units megapascals, in place of the old 740 bar) specified by the CIP and measured by means of a piezo-electric transducer.
2.1 The steel shot diameter must be 3.25 mm (i.e. equal to or less than 3.25 mm, which is smaller than English no. 3).
2.2 The mean velocity, measured at a point 2.50 m from the muzzle, must be 400 m/s (around 1,300 ft/s).This velocity is to be measured using a cylindrical barrel and the mean value of a series of 10 shots.
2.3 The momentum must be: Mo = mV ? 12 Ns. (Momentum = mass of shot x its velocity, measured in Newton-seconds (!). It is calculated by multiplying the weight of shot load (in kgs) by the velocity (at 2.5 m) in m/s. So, a 30 g load at 385 m/s has a momentum of 0.030 x 385 = 11.55 Ns i.e. just under the 12.0 Ns limit). See Endnote.
"Standard Steel Shot Loads are fine to use with barrels proofed for Lead Shot, which is where the confusion is when it comes to Steel Shot."
This is CIP, not SAAMI, but the 3.25 mm max shot diameter is a problem, as is the allowable velocity.
![Image]()
Although the statement that "Standard Steel Shot Loads are fine to use with barrels proofed for Lead Shot" sounds good, shot no larger than 3.25mm means you would need to use #5 steel or smaller.
Although the statement that "Standard Steel Shot Loads are fine to use with barrels proofed for Lead Shot" sounds good, shot no larger than 3.25mm means you would need to use #5 steel or smaller.
I cant speak on this as a general thing but I can give you my single experience with steel shot.
When steel shot became required for duck hunting I ,being a law abiding sort, started using it. At the time I hunted ducks with a Winchester 1300, nothing fancy but a decent shotgun proofed for steel shot.
I used that shotgun for one season with steel loads and it never broke. However, at the end of the season while cleaning the gun I noticed that the barrel looked rifled inside! Actual grooves!
I havent hunted ducks since then and I refuse to run that sh!t through any shotgun I have. We even had a local Trap and Skeet range that started requiring that crap ...within a year they went belly up.
When steel shot became required for duck hunting I ,being a law abiding sort, started using it. At the time I hunted ducks with a Winchester 1300, nothing fancy but a decent shotgun proofed for steel shot.
I used that shotgun for one season with steel loads and it never broke. However, at the end of the season while cleaning the gun I noticed that the barrel looked rifled inside! Actual grooves!
I havent hunted ducks since then and I refuse to run that sh!t through any shotgun I have. We even had a local Trap and Skeet range that started requiring that crap ...within a year they went belly up.
A quite informative and non hysterical article.
www.thefield.co.uk
Typical cartridge for an old timer.
www.eleyhawkltd.com
Steel shot and vintage guns - can you combine them?
The move away from lead shot need not mean parting company with our beloved vintage guns, says experienced gun expert Simon Reinhold
www.thefield.co.uk
Typical cartridge for an old timer.
Eley Hawk Game Cartridges | High Performance Game Loads
Explore Eley Hawk’s range of high-performance game cartridges, designed for precision and reliability in every game shooting environment.
The old guns I used steel in the past are all autos or pumps, the barrels on them are typically more stout than Sxs guns that are successfully shooting standard steel. The muzzle diameter on my 1925 Remington model 11 is .857” and much thicker as you head towards the chamber. This adds a little more margin for error. I have a spare Belgian made A-5 barrel in modified I have been using steel in so I don’t risk the original barrel. So far so good and have been using #2 steel in it. It shoots super tight patterns though, too much for how I hunt so will have to open the choke up if I decide to fire steel. I load my own steel too so I can control the product. I used some store bought steel shot this year that was running well over the rated fps. I suspect from the recoil and the way the hulls were ejecting that it was way higher pressure than it probably should have been. I have seen more inconsistent factory steel loads than with lead over the years. Still leap years ahead of steel of the 80’s and 90’s. Modern wads are really good now and shot is almost always annealed unless you buy bottom barrel stuff. I use lbc-43 steel wads and have never had any burn though and I’ve checked hundreds of spent wads. I try to use zinc plated annealed shot when I can too. Like I said no scoring or bulges yet. I also never overfill the wad with shot, this keeps it all protected in the wad and helps with the transition into the forcing cone too I suspect.
Shoot enough steel shot and even modern guns will show some scoring. It won't be the reason you missed though.
I’m to send out samples of my favorite steel load to be pressure tested just so I have a reference point, I’ve fired tons of them with no I’ll effects out of a Japanese A-5 mag 12 that had a tru-choke installed in but who knows. I inspect it very closely after every shooting session. It’s had around 750 rounds of my steel loads through it and I’m not sure how many factory steel loads. There are no signs of steel damage as of yet but this may be do to a difference in steel composition in the Japan made A5’s vs Belgian made barrels, who knows. I’ve heard others claim that all Japanese A-5 barrels are good to go with steel. I’m certainly not encouraging anyone to run steel out of these old guns, I’m trying to learn about it to see if any can be run safely. I think you should have your guns certified by a gunsmith before shooting anything if you don’t know 100%. At least we know we can run bismuth loads through most of these old guns, so we have options and is the only certified option that seems somewhat reasonably priced.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
